Is it time to ditch USB?

Devg said:
No Mike, if you really think - the problem shifts to another domain with AES/EBU with all those reflections and technicalities on how to pass that clock jitter free. In fact, they cost more to implement. How many of them are true 100Ohms ? DAC's poor USB implementation has really given a bad rep to the USB interface.
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Packet noise from an AES/EBU transmission is a lot less than USB, therefore impacting less on the power supply rails.

AES/EBU does not carry VBUS or a signal ground, just a differential pair and a case earth wire.

FWIW, the AES/EBU connector is far more durable than USB.

In my own comparisons with the same make/model/brand of AES/EBU vs USB cables, the AES/EBU is better, removing a layer of grain and adding a level of ease. YMMV.
 
Devg said:
I am big fan of Schiit but that post is 3yrs old. During all these yrs, I am sure Mr Moffat have found a way to be had more from the USB. With the new Schiit's Gen 5 USB board, things might change :)
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The article was written last year. Agree on the advancements of USB, but I still don't think it's as good as AES or even BNC. YMMV.
 
Mike said:
Packet noise from an AES/EBU transmission is a lot less than USB, therefore impacting less on the power supply rails.

AES/EBU does not carry VBUS or a signal ground, just a differential pair and a case earth wire.

FWIW, the AES/EBU connector is far more durable than USB.

In my own comparisons with the same make/model/brand of AES/EBU vs USB cables, the AES/EBU is better, removing a layer of grain and adding a level of ease. YMMV.
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With PS Audio DS, there is virtually no difference between USB and AES/EBU interface in my testing, though I haven't used any uber expensive AES/EBU cable but I doubt the results would have differed. If you have found AES/EBU to sound a lot better than USB, then possibly either the AES/EBU in the source is better or the DAC's USB implementation is poor.
 
Mike said:
The article was written last year. Agree on the advancements of USB, but I still don't think it's as good as AES or even BNC. YMMV.
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For me, the next generation should be Fiber Ethernet IN and Analog OUT with short internal I2S path to the DAC chip.
 
Hey Mike, in regards to Diana Kroll, I have 12 albums I believe, but what I was referring to was Turn Up The Quiet. I purchased DSD64 from Acoustic Sounds, but what I actually received was DSD128! This was a first day purchased, so maybe they have change it...
 
Randy Myers said:
Well to my ears DSD is fantastic. I see quite a few albums available, also more higher level DSD, such as Jazz at the Pawnshop 3 coming out in DSD256.

MQA has no interest to me since I do not stream. Storage, sure DSD takes more... does this matter to anyone but streamers? Seems like quite a bit is being released in SACD to me, and several new albums in DSD downloads.... new Diana Krall I downloaded in DSD128. Sounds amazing... new Lyn Stanley albums are some of the best recordings ever... released in vinyl and SACD... soon to be available in DSD128 according to Lyn...
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I'm on your side, Randy! :rolleyes:

Devg said:
For me, the next generation should be Fiber Ethernet IN and Analog OUT with short internal I2S path to the DAC chip.
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That would be nice!
 
I won't comment on DSD or MQA, but re: ditching USB. In terms of the sound, I think it depends on implementation and attention to detail. For example the DSD-compatible USB board in my Vitus SCD-025 Mk2 was done right & took Vitus 6 months to develop that board alone.

Also cable companies like PAD and Siltech make serious high end USB 2.0 standard cables. So done right, music from even an unmodded laptop has the potential for audiophile sound. I have some lossless AIFF rips of XRCD24's & DXD's ripped via JRiver which sound very good. I haven't even started to explore DSD.
 
Mike said:
With the imminent death of DSD, the rise of MQA and the continued support for PCM, is it time to ditch the problem ridden USB cable and instead look at superior cables like AES/EBU?


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Interesting question Mike. Deliberately provocative it beckons to bring/keep the sizzle in the forum.

While I agree MQA is likely to continue to rise, in my opinion it still has a long way to go. We can speculate all we like but in the end time will tell. Agreed though the signs are promising.

As for DSD... I would hardly say its death is imminent. We're all aware that the format never was embraced broadly, however so many people today do enjoy it. Like many others I have hundreds of DSD albums which represent 1/3 of my library.

Now regarding MQA... the first time I heard it fully decoded I recognized how different it is. Wow. But is it better than DSD? Not sure, but different. In the end, MQA adoption can be fueled through streaming (TIDAL).

Regarding cables... USB will remain the standard for quite a while yet. Some people here seem to like the Lush cable. Personally I was completely blown away by the Kubala Sosna Realization USB cable. Never expected the sound quality I am enjoying now.

AES/EBU may gain some ground in the upper echelon audiophile community but is not likely to come close to USB. If anything I agree Ethernet is likely to overtake USB at some point but again this is all speculation. In time we'll know.

It was just a week or two ago you were raving about the ifi USB thing. Done right, USB can perform at amazingly good levels. But clearly in many cases it is not implemented optimally.

For the time being and for the foreseeable future I'm fine with USB - especially with the KS Realization. It exceeds my expectations. Yes I'll play with SPDIF as well on my N10. Nice to have the clock etc but in the end this amounts to an intellectual exercise. When I want to enjoy the music and as Jock says get my toe tapping I just enjoy the best of what I've got today.



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Mike said:
Packet noise from an AES/EBU transmission is a lot less than USB, therefore impacting less on the power supply rails.

AES/EBU does not carry VBUS or a signal ground, just a differential pair and a case earth wire.

FWIW, the AES/EBU connector is far more durable than USB.

In my own comparisons with the same make/model/brand of AES/EBU vs USB cables, the AES/EBU is better, removing a layer of grain and adding a level of ease. YMMV.
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Do you mean all usb cables , Mike?
Since 3 years I use unpowered usb cables . First it was Jcat Ref without power and then Polish Salamandra usb cable with additional grounding and wooden connectors ( type Entreq) between W20 and Lampi Big 7.
In the same time I can play pcm files with La Fontaine fed from W20 , connected with Fadel Art Ref II AES/EBU.
To be honest I can hear the difference but not in the level of digital artifacts , the tonality , sound stage and resolution are different, but not digital grain.
Of cours in my system and for my ears.
 
I don't see usb dying any time soon. Too many people use computers to store and play music. And the sub $1K USB DAC market seems to be booming with the gluttony of products that are cheap and sound good. I see usb being tweaked and improved. devices like the Regen, Jitterbug and a few others improved usb sound and will be incorporated in new products.
 
johndoe21ro said:
I just hope DSD will continue to develop... PCM too.. Not much of an MQA fan!
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I have to agree with these comments. I have listened to MQA streaming and compared to the Redbook equivalents and preferred the Redbook versions. Also compared the MQA streams against hi-rez and found I preferred the hi-rez. It was pretty close and definitely good enough to listen to and I support it's use for streaming, as the smaller file size allows near Redbook quality to be streamed, however, I remain unconvinced it is as good as Redbook or hi-rez music.
 
slowgeezr said:
I have to agree with these comments. I have listened to MQA streaming and compared to the Redbook equivalents and preferred the Redbook versions. Also compared the MQA streams against hi-rez and found I preferred the hi-rez. It was pretty close and definitely good enough to listen to and I support it's use for streaming, as the smaller file size allows near Redbook quality to be streamed, however, I remain unconvinced it is as good as Redbook or hi-rez music.
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At this point I tend to agree with you... I am encouraged and enthused about MQA and do enjoy it but... not there yet hook, line and sinker...



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slowgeezr said:
I have to agree with these comments. I have listened to MQA streaming and compared to the Redbook equivalents and preferred the Redbook versions. Also compared the MQA streams against hi-rez and found I preferred the hi-rez. It was pretty close and definitely good enough to listen to and I support it's use for streaming, as the smaller file size allows near Redbook quality to be streamed, however, I remain unconvinced it is as good as Redbook or hi-rez music.
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Steve - full blown MQA? What are you using for a DAC?


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Probably Wadax, is the only company that has been using UPnP (Pre One), has abandoned this connection, to use USB in its latest DAC (Atlantis and the next Akadia). The designer states that with preferred USB correctly implemented and that in the past had many problems of disconnections with UPnP. In my experience with Lumin ZERO disconnections in almost four years.
 
I think that who really makes it fantastic, is MSB with its modular system. Mr. client you choose the entry that you like.:congrats:
 
In my personal opinion yes. If were to compare high end audio to the video industry. Well, you don't see many people running Composite, S-Video, and Component Video anymore. These cables simply can't provide the bandwidth to carry 4k picture and uncompressed audio. A must for 4K , HDR, Dolby atmos etc...

USB for high end audio was a just a stop gap and a matter of convenience. It was designed for printers and not high end end audio. The legacy SPDIF and AES are better but, still flawed.

IMHO, I think the is2 interface adopted by PS Audio, Esoteric and MSB is probably the way of the future for high end audio applications.
 
Mike said:
Steve - full blown MQA? What are you using for a DAC?


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Yes, full blown MQA. I suppose one could purchase a DAC that could make it sound better, but the DAC I listened to was very good, at least to my ears.

Mike, I'm not sure of the brand of DAC, but the point was that with that DAC, I listened to the same tracks in MQA and DSD and Redbook and MQA came close, but not quite as realistic to me as the other formats. Perhaps if I had listened to other tracks, I might have had a different conclusion, but I don't think so. I didn't listen so much for dynamic impact, or timbre, or details, etcetera, I listened with "what sounds most lifelike, less artificial" as my criteria.
 
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