Is Class D actually killing the "soul" of high-end audio?

[RepublicOfTexas69]

My responses are 100% human (me) written.

Not you the OP.

 

[Hear Here]

You do you. Me I enjoy them all, Just unplugged my SPL AB system and put my Canor A1 2.10 in and guess what Music still has it's soul... Guess I will try my Benchmark system later tonight and see if Class G is the soul sucker... These threads crack me up Audio is subjective and there is no right answer but I can fire up my tube amps to make sure..

I have to say that my extensive series of amplifier tests was prompted by my first non-SET purchase after deciding to move to ss. A fellow Avantgarde speaker owner had been raving about his Benchmark AHB2 amplifer - so I bought one unheard. Big mistake as it was drearily dull, despite (or maybe because of) its "accuracy". It transpired that my AG chum was obsessed with silence, so the Benchmark's huge SN ratio impressed him. Just thought I should mention this.

 

[SCAudiophile]

Thanks for clarifying,. I know and was having some fun probing to try to break the algorithmic DNA

 

[Hear Here]

That is a seriously impressive list of amps to compare against, especially heavyweights like Accuphase and Mark Levinson. Moving away from SET valve amps is a massive shift since that holographic midrange is addictive. It speaks volumes that the NAD M33 held its own and outperformed setups multiple times its price in your system. I guess the modern integration of Purifi really has managed to iron out the dry, analytical traits that plagued older modules. Do you ever miss that specific SET tube saturation on certain tracks, or does the NAD genuinely satisfy that itch across the board?

Several of the amps I tested were good including the ML and the Accuphase A-36. In fact I kept the latter for over a year and it was a beautiful amp in many respects. However, I eventually concluded it was a little too "polite" for my liking and some music didn't have the punch that I wanted.

My tests started with the purchase of a Benchmark AHB2 - see my post #22 above.

To answer your question, I have no regrets moving from SETs to ss but I'd certainly have been disappointed with several of the ss amps I tried, including some I expected to like eg Sugden. The other great amp was the GamuT D200 - III, but it had a nasty feature of upsetting my speakers by sending a serious thump to them on powering up or down. Its User Manual even warns about this, but only of concern with my 100+ dB speakers.

I'm sure that amp to speaker matching was a contributory factor to my choice of amp. My current speakers are 18 ohms and 107 dB sensitivity, so a very easy load. The NAD's 200 watts are not of concern as I can limit the maximum output by a -20 dB setting, and extra watts are always good when playing some music loudly!

 

[Hear Here]

The longer I’m in this hobby, the more I’m convinced there are very few if any absolutes. When people talk about something being “better”, in my experience what they’re generally saying is that something is more in accordance with their own perception of the various factors that make something sound real to them.

Nearly by definition, audio enthusiasts spend extended periods of time in focused listening. This kind of focused attention has long been known to create new neural pathways in the brain, but we all listen to different music on different systems in different acoustic environments, so the way in which those neural pathways develop can’t help but be as unique as we are. I had this phenomenon effectively illustrated when listening to a $30K set of speakers at a high end audio salon with a friend many years ago. My friend was blown away by them. I thought they sounded clinical and lifeless. To each his/her own.

All valid points and perhaps one reason why brands suggest that their kit needs to be "burnt in" for a week or so.

Even if no change actually occurs in the new kit that we''ve just spent lots of cash on, we often feel the unfamilar new amp isn't quite up to our expectations and we still enjoy the one we've had in our system for several years. However after being persuaded that the amp will improve after a burn in, we believe this claim as we've now become accustiomed to the new music presentation and, most likely, we now prefer it to our old kit! If not, we've made a duff choice! Strange things, brains!

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

I have to say that my extensive series of amplifier tests was prompted by my first non-SET purchase after deciding to move to ss. A fellow Avantgarde speaker owner had been raving about his Benchmark AHB2 amplifer - so I bought one unheard. Big mistake as it was drearily dull, despite (or maybe because of) its "accuracy". It transpired that my AG chum was obsessed with silence, so the Benchmark's huge SN ratio impressed him. Just thought I should mention this.

Synergy is key and clearly you missed that with the AG Benchmark combo, and was just not suited to your taste, and room.

 

[2FarGone]

All valid points and perhaps one reason why brands suggest that their kit needs to be "burnt in" for a week or so.

Even if no change occurs in the new kit that we''ve just spent lots of cash on, we often feel the unfamilar new amp isn't quite up to our expectations and we still enjoy the one we've had in our system for several years. However after being persuaded that the amp will improve after a burn in, we believe this claim as we've now become accustiomed to the new music presentation and, most likely, we now prefer it to our old kit! Strange things, brains!

I can’t speak for anyone else, but in my own case I’m clear this does not apply. I demand a certain level of value from anything new that I put in the system. There have been many cables of various types that have come and gone in my system because I felt they didn’t provide value proportionate to their cost, and the same has happened with some components. I’ll give them plenty of time with different kinds of music, but once I arrive at that conclusion, they’re gone. One component in particular cost me a 50% loss after less than 2 years. I counted myself lucky that it wasn’t worse.

I like to think that makes me frugal. I suppose I could just be cheap, although the amount of money I've sunk in equipment over the years might tend to belie that. Living hand to mouth for many years can do that to you. I’m lucky enough now to be able to afford a pretty decent rig - just in time for my hearing to start heading south. As Louis Wu might put it, “Tanj.”

 

[Randy Myers]

Exactly. Even with names like PS Audio and NAD, the core characteristic doesn't change it measures perfectly but lacks that organic depth. The hybrid approach you're using with a tube pre amp and McIntosh solid state seems to be the only real way to escape the clinical Class D sound without dealing with the constant bias adjustments and maintenance of full tube power amps.

I have had tube pre-amp is the past, but at this point both my Mc amp and pre are solid state.

 

[Randy Myers]

I can’t speak for anyone else, but in my own case I’m clear this does not apply. I demand a certain level of value from anything new that I put in the system. There have been many cables of various types that have come and gone in my system because I felt they didn’t provide value proportionate to their cost, and the same has happened with some components. I’ll give them plenty of time with different kinds of music, but once I arrive at that conclusion, they’re gone. One component in particular cost me a 50% loss after less than 2 years. I counted myself lucky that it wasn’t worse.

I like to think that makes me frugal. I suppose I could just be cheap, although the amount of money I've sunk in equipment over the years might tend to belie that. Living hand to mouth for many years can do that to you. I’m lucky enough now to be able to afford a pretty decent rig - just in time for my hearing to start heading south. As Louis Wu might put it, “Tanj.”

I totally agree. I want value from anything I purchase. I do not mind spending money, but I cannot stand wasting money.

 

[Randy Myers]

I have to say that my extensive series of amplifier tests was prompted by my first non-SET purchase after deciding to move to ss. A fellow Avantgarde speaker owner had been raving about his Benchmark AHB2 amplifer - so I bought one unheard. Big mistake as it was drearily dull, despite (or maybe because of) its "accuracy". It transpired that my AG chum was obsessed with silence, so the Benchmark's huge SN ratio impressed him. Just thought I should mention this.

I appreciate the Benchmark company, especially since they are from my second hometown, Syracuse, NY. But every piece I have ever owned or listened to felt very sterile to me. I have no qualm with their quality but not my favorite sound leanings.

 

[Mr Peabody]

All valid points and perhaps one reason why brands suggest that their kit needs to be "burnt in" for a week or so.

Even if no change actually occurs in the new kit that we''ve just spent lots of cash on, we often feel the unfamilar new amp isn't quite up to our expectations and we still enjoy the one we've had in our system for several years. However after being persuaded that the amp will improve after a burn in, we believe this claim as we've now become accustiomed to the new music presentation and, most likely, we now prefer it to our old kit! If not, we've made a duff choice! Strange things, brains!

I love you guys who don't understand and believe break/burn in is for real. Despite science to back it up. I actually got a good deal on my speakers from someone like you. He didn't like what he was hearing out of the box and didn't believe they would change. Oddly even after he heard them later in my system and liked what they were doing I still don't think he was convinced. Once you guys latch onto something there's no changing your mind even when faced with evidence.

There have been components that got sent back by me because my mind just wouldn't bend to their will.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

I totally agree. I want value from anything I purchase. I do not mind spending money, but I cannot stand wasting money.

Value is very subjective.

 

[Hear Here]

I totally agree. I want value from anything I purchase. I do not mind spending money, but I cannot stand wasting money.

Yep - and possibly the best way to avoid wasting your money is to ditch as many cables as you can. We all know that no cable is capable of improving the signal, so get them out of your system as far as possible.

 

[Hear Here]

I love you guys who don't understand and believe break/burn in is for real. Despite science to back it up. I actually got a good deal on my speakers from someone like you. He didn't like what he was hearing out of the box and didn't believe they would change. Oddly even after he heard them later in my system and liked what they were doing I still don't think he was convinced. Once you guys latch onto something there's no changing your mind even when faced with evidence.

There have been components that got sent back by me because my mind just wouldn't bend to their will.

As uisual, you have misinterpreted the point I was making so your response is nonsense. Please re-read my post and you'll realise the folly of your reply.

 

[atmasphere]

I'll just say in regards to the more affordable Class D there are very real technical reasons they can sound bad and yet measure good.

Obviously the wrong thing was measured. If it sounds bad, its bad.

That is a fantastic point, Bill. Genre absolutely dictates what we look for in amplification. For complex classical arrangements and massive choral pieces, that absolute black background and clinical separation of Class D probably shine perfectly. But like you mentioned, when it comes to Jazz or Rock, you often want that raw energy, the grit, and the organic bloom of a tube harmonic texture to make the instruments feel 'alive' in the room. It makes complete sense why a Purifi setup works perfectly for your preferences, but for someone spinning classic rock or intimate vocal jazz, it might still feel a bit too polished.

There has never been an amplifier that is genre specific. That such a thing exists is a myth. Any designer would love to know how to make equipment genre specific; they could make a lot more money...

The hype ignores the actual engineering limitations

If the output filter is inside the feedback loop then the the amp can be load invariant.

 

[2FarGone]

Value is very subjective.

Agree completely. Were it not for that differentiated sense of value, most if not all high-end luxury products would not exist, high-end audio included.

 

[2FarGone]

Yep - and possibly the best way to avoid wasting your money is to ditch as many cables as you can. We all know that no cable is capable of improving the signal, so get them out of your system as far as possible.

It would be hard to argue your point. No cable can do more than reveal what the equipment it connects actually sounds like. Having said that, if you have an idea on how I can reduce the cables in my system beyond the fairly straightforward way it’s currently connected, I’d love to hear it, because I don’t see it.

 

[Hear Here]

It would be hard to argue your point. No cable can do more than reveal what the equipment it connects actually sounds like. Having said that, if you have an idea on how I can reduce the cables in my system beyond the fairly straightforward way it’s currently connected, I’d love to hear it, because I don’t see it.

My approach is to buy as few enclosures as possible (they are usually the most costly part of hi-fi kit) and include as many elements in it as is reasonable.

So, for exaple have one enclosure containing a streamer, DAC, preamp and perhaps phono preamp (if you are into vinyl). DSP if you believe this improveds your system, headphone amp, etc. One box - no cables. Have a separate power amp perhaps, as this uses a great deal of power compared with other componants. Then you need just one pair of cables (XLR balanced one hopes) connecting streamer preamp to power amp. Add a pair of speaker cables and you're done. Vinyl users or those with tape decks etc will need extra cables, but otherwise you can end up more-or-less cable-free and no snake-pit of untidy wires behind your equipment. Bliss!

 

[Mechnutt]

I’ve been reading through the endless debates about Class D efficiency, and honestly, I don't get the hype. Sure, they are light and run cool, but every time I listen to a Class D setup, it feels completely clinical and sterile compared to a solid Class A/B or a tube amp.

To me, it feels like we are sacrificing musical warmth and texture just for better specs on paper. Is anyone else tired of people claiming you'll "get left behind" if you don't switch, or am I just old school for preferring an amp with some actual soul? Let's be real about it.

I have heard warmer Class D amps before. Nuprime makes warm amps and they have a chart comparing the warmth of all their amps. People seem to love their gear.

I had a Marantz PM-KI Ruby integrated that was warm with a very liquid, warm mid range that was just fabulous. It imparted emotion to the music and it had a romantic sound. It was just lacking a little detail, otherwise I would still own it. Its sound reminds me of the 70's Pioneer receivers (own a Pioneer SX-780 that sounds fabulous). The Ruby has a vintage sound to it. Unlike my Levinson integrated which has a modern sound.

Amp Comparison & Sonic Characteristic - NuPrime Audio

Read this article about NuPrime's hybrid Class D amp designs that put them on par with the best Class A and Tube amps.

nuprimeaudio.com

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

I did not know that High End Audio had a soul...Music yes, gear no.