mep
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2013
- Messages
- 5,093
Thanks AJ and I wish you the same. I enjoy my system every day.
Interesting info re: digital cable "deniers"
- Thread starter Michaels HiFi
- Start date
Thanks AJ and I wish you the same. I enjoy my system every day.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
You must have chosen your digital cable well.
Ok, I'll stop, I swear...
Happy 2023 to all
Ok, I'll stop, I swear...
Happy 2023 to all
MattHooper
New member
Wait...AJ Soundfield posts here?
Must be an..."interesting"...fit for this forum ;-)
Must be an..."interesting"...fit for this forum ;-)
Even so, there's something I don't understand about audiophiles "deniers"...
I think that, we audiophiles, go through the forums to share our toys and report the progress we are making as we move along this labyrinthine path of audio. And naturally, we are also here to learn from others and from the different paths they have followed, hoping to skip a few steps and be able to make better choices.
What I ask is, what do "deniers" do on the internet audio spaces? What do they have to share/teach? The dangers of being deceived by the sense of hearing, which is responsible for hearing and enjoying listening to music so much?
Sometimes I wish that the "deniers", along with the warnings for all the dangers and idiocy in which we "audio fools" let ourselves get caught up, had the intellectual honesty to invite us so that we could listen to their systems and confirm the performance they achieved to reach. Not being fooled by marketing gimmicks, esoteric science or neuroacoustics mistakes, they certainly achieved superlative performance in their systems.
mep
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- Joined
- Dec 4, 2013
- Messages
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Not sure why you addressed your question to me. I was merely commenting on the two people that have opposing positions.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
Hmmm, not sure if as an educated adult who doesn't believe people actually hear Santa Claus, that I qualify as a "Denier", but I've been publicly demoing for well over a decade (note date). Does that count?
capital audiofest
I would guestimate at a typical audio show weekend, maybe 300 attendees pass thru? So 3 shows per year x 10+ would be somewhere around 9000, though of course there might be some repeats. Is that comparable to the average audiophile??
The flip side is that I've personally heard hundreds of audiophile systems. Folks who can hear everything under the sun, but not out of phase speakers, non functional drivers, booming bass modes, distortions, hiss, snap, crackle, pop, etc. etc. If that makes me a Denier, guilty as charged!
Btw I'll be at the upcoming FL Expo in a couple weeks if you feel so inclined. I've also linked this numerous times, but this guy might also qualify as a "Denier", though he was a bit more selective with demos of his "Denier system", so it seems.
cheers,
AJ
Is nothing with you Mep.
I just found your statement funny!
My point is, even in a polite discussion, deniers always tell us: "don't go there", "don't go there"
But they never say which way to go...
AJ
I still don't understand what you believe and don't believe. But for me there are basic things, without them, those who don't believe cannot build a good system. It may be good in one aspect or another, but it will fail somewhere. A detailed system for example. The detail is of no interest if you turn up the volume and the transition between mids and highs hurts your ears, a sign that there is a lot of garbage in the signal...
So, rhetorical question: does electricity count?
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
I believe audiophiles don't understand basic word meanings they use.
If its "all subjective", why do audiophiles always need purely objective support to prop up their purported subjective beliefs, like digital papers, purity of wire, price, etc, etc, etc.???
If you enjoy "better" cables, "better" electricity, etc, etc, etc, for whatever visible, knowledge, price, etc reason, then subjectively that's all that should matter.
There is overwhelming science to say pleasing all your senses counts.
With electrical systems, electricity counts, but soundwaves is all that matters. To some ears.
cheers,
AJ
See you at FL Intl Expo?
W9TR
Active member
I’ve read John Swenson’s white paper, and all of the Benchmark white papers.
What’s missing is the correlation of these digital interference effects with something measurable in an end-to-end test. I would expect oscillator phase noise and D/A threshold interference to manifest themselves in a quantifiable parameter like the wide band jitter spectra, modulation noise, etc.
It crickets when I directly ask the question.
But I do hear a difference when I reduce these effects in my system by eliminating bitching power supplies and optically isolating wired ethernet.
What’s missing is the correlation of these digital interference effects with something measurable in an end-to-end test. I would expect oscillator phase noise and D/A threshold interference to manifest themselves in a quantifiable parameter like the wide band jitter spectra, modulation noise, etc.
It crickets when I directly ask the question.
But I do hear a difference when I reduce these effects in my system by eliminating bitching power supplies and optically isolating wired ethernet.
Back around 2008 or 2009 I set up a simple music server using a cast off desktop computer running XP. I was wondering if the USB cables could sound different. I bought two identical generic cables. I send one to Jena Labs for cryogenic treatment. I found there was a noticeable improvement with the cryo cable. I posted this experiment at a digital forum at a popular discussion site. There were a number of digital smart people and a few industry folks who got a big laugh out of it. The 0 1's argument was a common response.
Contempt prior to investigation.
Contempt prior to investigation.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
- Thread Author
- #31
I think it falls back on a very simple premise: either they have tried and they are unable to hear a difference with their hearing, or their hearing is fine and they have a system that isn't good enough.
I just can't understand why anyone would refuse to use their own ears. And if they have and can't hear a difference, that's fine but leave the rest of us alone.
I did an ethernet cable test a few weeks back between two Shunyata's - the Venom-X and the more expensive Sigma. I actually preferred the LESS expensive cable. Surely this undercuts everyone who thinks that due to some imaginary bias they keep talking about I should have preferred the more expensive cable, right?
Or the 15 switch shoot out I did - the winning switch ended up being one of the least expensive at only $30.
Just because others may be easily led mentally doesn't mean we all are.
MattHooper
New member
Hi Spock!
I agree!
But a problem here is I'm not sure precisely what you mean by "deniers." I don't know how broad a brush you are painting with there and who would or wouldn't fit in that category. So for instance there are audiophiles who rely so much on measurements they wouldn't even trust another audiophile, or reviewer, or even their own ears necessarily, to choose a speaker. Likewise they are likely to be highly skeptical of the audiophile items that usually cause arguments (cables etc). I presume this person would fit your description of a "denier". (?)
Then on the other hand there can be an audiophile who happily uses regular auditions of equipment and testing stuff in his home, who believe speaker cables make a difference, maybe AC cables, but might be skeptical about *some* audio tweak that maybe you happen to believe in. Does a person go in to the "denier" category if they are skeptical of even one thing you believe in?
My own position is I rely on normal auditioning for speakers (we know objectively they measure and sound different), and turntable gear (same), and I use tube amps because they seem to me to sound different in a way I like (objectively speaking, given how tube amps work, this is at least plausible), and for things like cables..DEPENDING on the type of cable and claim.... I'm more skeptical and since I know how easily we can imagine differences I'd prefer to see strong evidence (e.g. that an AC cable actually measurably alters the music signal output, or that someone has passed blind tests to actually identify between AC cables). I might doubt some of these claims (especially claims related to digital cables/servers/transports), but I'm quite open to good evidence for them. Does that put me in your "denier" category?
I have a feeling you might see people like Amir from the ASR forum as a "denier." If so, such "deniers" offer a heck of a lot. Amir regularly educates as to how audio equipment works, regularly tests manufacturer claims among a range of equipment, which many find extremely helpful. If you go through the many comments under his testing and explanation videos you will see countless people thanking him for putting out this information and testing claims, so that they can have a better idea of what they might be spending their money on.
I'm among those thankful people.
While you may only see a negative if someone is skeptical of something you believe in, very often these people have good technical chops and offer plenty of positive information as to how electronics really work.
Though I'm no electronics expert, I've also done a bit of this myself, for instance on another forum (now years ago) detailing my experience comparing a range of video cables (some very expensive like Nordost) and providing a type of blind test for people on the forum. Many were very thankful for finding out they didn't really have to worry about spending extra money on boutique video cables.
Of course, you don't have to listen to a thing Amir, or anyone like him, or anyone who might be a regular at ASR or of a similar mindset has to say. But...many appreciate audiophile ideas and marketing claims coming under higher scrutiny than the old "I'm an audiophile and I feel like I heard a difference."
Well inviting some person over the internet to listen to one's system is a practical matter, isn't it? Not sure exactly how often that would work.
But you can always listen for yourself to gear that such people think highly of. Make your own decisions.
My personal view/experience is that the sound quality of a system - at least in terms of what would impress ME - isn't tied to someone having followed every "best technical practice" in putting together their system. Nor do I dismiss a system which may have all sorts of tweaks that I am skeptical about. I've heard systems set up by audiophiles who I may disagree with on some audio ideas, but their system has blown me away. In my view, even if someone is going in for SOME aspects I might think to be dubious, it doesn't mean they can't be very perceptive in putting together a system to come out with great results.
Cheers.
I agree!
But a problem here is I'm not sure precisely what you mean by "deniers." I don't know how broad a brush you are painting with there and who would or wouldn't fit in that category. So for instance there are audiophiles who rely so much on measurements they wouldn't even trust another audiophile, or reviewer, or even their own ears necessarily, to choose a speaker. Likewise they are likely to be highly skeptical of the audiophile items that usually cause arguments (cables etc). I presume this person would fit your description of a "denier". (?)
Then on the other hand there can be an audiophile who happily uses regular auditions of equipment and testing stuff in his home, who believe speaker cables make a difference, maybe AC cables, but might be skeptical about *some* audio tweak that maybe you happen to believe in. Does a person go in to the "denier" category if they are skeptical of even one thing you believe in?
My own position is I rely on normal auditioning for speakers (we know objectively they measure and sound different), and turntable gear (same), and I use tube amps because they seem to me to sound different in a way I like (objectively speaking, given how tube amps work, this is at least plausible), and for things like cables..DEPENDING on the type of cable and claim.... I'm more skeptical and since I know how easily we can imagine differences I'd prefer to see strong evidence (e.g. that an AC cable actually measurably alters the music signal output, or that someone has passed blind tests to actually identify between AC cables). I might doubt some of these claims (especially claims related to digital cables/servers/transports), but I'm quite open to good evidence for them. Does that put me in your "denier" category?
I have a feeling you might see people like Amir from the ASR forum as a "denier." If so, such "deniers" offer a heck of a lot. Amir regularly educates as to how audio equipment works, regularly tests manufacturer claims among a range of equipment, which many find extremely helpful. If you go through the many comments under his testing and explanation videos you will see countless people thanking him for putting out this information and testing claims, so that they can have a better idea of what they might be spending their money on.
I'm among those thankful people.
While you may only see a negative if someone is skeptical of something you believe in, very often these people have good technical chops and offer plenty of positive information as to how electronics really work.
Though I'm no electronics expert, I've also done a bit of this myself, for instance on another forum (now years ago) detailing my experience comparing a range of video cables (some very expensive like Nordost) and providing a type of blind test for people on the forum. Many were very thankful for finding out they didn't really have to worry about spending extra money on boutique video cables.
Of course, you don't have to listen to a thing Amir, or anyone like him, or anyone who might be a regular at ASR or of a similar mindset has to say. But...many appreciate audiophile ideas and marketing claims coming under higher scrutiny than the old "I'm an audiophile and I feel like I heard a difference."
Well inviting some person over the internet to listen to one's system is a practical matter, isn't it? Not sure exactly how often that would work.
But you can always listen for yourself to gear that such people think highly of. Make your own decisions.
My personal view/experience is that the sound quality of a system - at least in terms of what would impress ME - isn't tied to someone having followed every "best technical practice" in putting together their system. Nor do I dismiss a system which may have all sorts of tweaks that I am skeptical about. I've heard systems set up by audiophiles who I may disagree with on some audio ideas, but their system has blown me away. In my view, even if someone is going in for SOME aspects I might think to be dubious, it doesn't mean they can't be very perceptive in putting together a system to come out with great results.
Cheers.
MattHooper
New member
Yes, that is the usual (forgive the phrase) "Golden Ears" response to skepticism. It is to disparage either the skeptic's hearing or his system.
What responses like yours virtually never contain is the admission your strongly held belief based on your own perception could be wrong, unfortunately. It can only be "the other guy" who is wrong. This is what you get with a purely subjective paradigm.
What this misses is a huge variable: The way our biases affect our perception. This is a very well known, highly studied issue. What you call the person "refusing to use their own ears" is simply someone who is aware of this variable. Our "ears" are not perfect detecting machines. Together with our brain, they are fallible and we can "perceive things" that are not there. It can be due to an expectation effect (e.g. "the more expensive item will sound better") or to all sorts of influences, even the mere act of listening to see if there's any difference can change how you listen, and you can perceive a "difference in the sound" when there is no difference in the sound.
Unless you recognize these facts, you will never understand objections to some audiophile/high-end marketing claims.
Also, it's one thing to take on board such variables intellectually, it's another to experience it. That's when it can really sink in to your bones. If I compare different AC cables in my system I'm just as vulnerable as anyone else to hearing a difference. That's being human. Yet I've had 'obvious sonic differences' vanish when I set up blind tests, for instance between AC cables (or video cables...or music servers). When you experience how fallible your own perception can be, it's a good Life Lesson to take on board. But those audiophiles who believe only a purely subjective impression can possibly determine the truth tend not to be interested in alternatives to that viewpoint, and never truly put their hearing to the real crucible: whether you can detect a difference between A and B WITHOUT knowing which is which before-hand. THAT is truly "relying on what you can REALLY hear."
Again, as I often emphasis, neither you nor any audiophile HAS to care a thing about measurements or blind tests to enjoy the hobby. But at the same time, without grappling with these issues, you will likely continue to put forth question-begging claims where you have simply presumed you "hear" a difference that others "can not" without ever questioning yourself on the matter.
I hope I'm wrong, though. A good question to always ask yourself "How would I learn that I was wrong?" If you have made your position unfalsifiable, others are justified in being suspicious of your findings.
Cheers.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
- Thread Author
- #34
Simple - it's my ears, my money, my system. Therefore I can never be "wrong" if I like it. It's literally that simple.
Cable deniers simply need to butt out, stop attacking us and trying to convince us we are the wrong ones. It frankly doesn't concern them whether we are wrong, right or in between.
The real question is why are cable deniers obsessed with attacking and forcing their dogma on others and can't simply let it go?
It's literally that simple.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
C'mon down, can't bring it to you. Despite what you've heard, I don't bite believers. Or I can arrange a trip to Redmond.
As I've said, its the folks who have zero trust of ears who fear trust your ears, just listen listening. Rightfully so, as JGH said above ;-).
cheers,
AJ
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
Indeed modern day homes can have a lot of noise inducing gadgets
MattHooper
New member
I think you are seeing only one side of the equation...if audiophiles such as yourself ONLY made assertions like "I believe I hear a difference so that's why I'll buy X"...no problem. But you don't stop there. These don't stay personal claims - they presume those claims to be The Truth. If that weren't the case, you wouldn't have been implying that the reason skeptics don't agree with you is because they have poor hearing or poor audio systems.
This is a blind-spot I so often see in these conversations. An audiophile says "I can hear differences between X and Y cables" and if another audiophile gives this opinion "I doubt there is a sonic difference because..." then the first audiophile leaps on the skeptic, as if only the skeptic is making "truth" claims. In other words "your" opinion is fine, even if it's making broad truth claims, but an alternative opinion is an "attack" and dirty pool. No, if you are saying "there are sonic differences between cables and IF you don't hear this then you have poor hearing or a poor system" then you've thrown down a gauntlet and you can't just pretend it's the "other guy" who is doing the "attacking" just because he has a skeptical position.
The other thing is, anything we post in public forums becomes some claim that many others will see. So for instance if a bunch of audiophiles are saying "I bought X tweak and it transformed my system" then it can influence other audiophiles to spend their money that way. That can be FINE in the sense that we can all buy whatever we want.
But it is ALSO worthwhile to have other people examine those claims and if it's the case they are dubious claims, to point out why. THAT gives another point of view for other audiophiles to consider, who may appreciate seeing the skeptical case as well, in terms of how they will spend their money. Just like some audiophiles can say why they would disagree that Wilson Audio speakers are the most accomplished speaker design in the world.
Nobody learns too much in an echo-chamber.
I'm not attacking you. Who is?
If you see an alternative viewpoint as "attacking" you, then it's probably a good idea to become less sensitive. Again, on such a view, aren't you "attacking" others by "attacking" their poor hearing/systems?
What happens if we flip your position around and say: "Cable believers simply need to butt out, stop pushing their cable-beliefs on other audiophiles!"
That only sounds weird if you just presume your own position as the default truth, and any other position as an "attack."
How about: you buy what you want, for whatever reason you want, and I'll do the same. But since audio forums are about discussing gear, if someone is making some claim for a piece of gear "Wilson speakers are the BEST in the world" or "USB cables all sound different" then since audiophiles have different viewpoints on anything, we can discuss those viewpoints civilly without presuming we are being "attacked."
Cheers.
MattHooper
New member
Oh I've always been happy to visit other audiophile dens.
But just in case you might have misinterpreted me: I wasn't implying that someone taking a more objective approach to putting together a system can't end up with a terrific sounding system, one that I would enjoy. I was just pointing out that I have found systems put together by what some prickly "objectivists" might term "audiophools" to have sounded fantastic too. As I've argued over on ASR, even if we presume there are aspects of a system chosen by a purely "subjective" audiophile that may be voo-doo, that doesn't mean the audiophile hasn't a good sense of sound, hasn't paid attention also to what does make sonic differences, and hasn't arrived at a good sounding system.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
Well, I meant the audio show, as in FL Intl Audio Expo. Many identical rooms, so you're not just listening to adapting to one system. You can go room to room and compare the sound. Best if one has own music as an anchor.
That's a bit of a strawman. I know there are some knuckleheads at ASR et al, but is anyone actually arguing there are no good sounding believer systems? I've heard absolutely stellar stereo sound in rooms of folks who believe in things I certainly don't. However, those tend the exceptions to the rule. The majority of believer systems I've heard sound either mediocre, or some, outright terrible, despite the tons of voodoo nonsense. Similar to what the Capfest guy described above. I think you might be missing my point. Do you think these 2 guys wouldn't have heard cream of the crop voodoo believer stereos? Yet they almost creamed themselves when they heard a real HiFi system for the first time ever. A very very non-believer "Santa Denier" guy/system if there ever was one.
That's the irony of the bubble. And humor ;-).
cheers,
AJ
MattHooper
New member
Not really. It's fairly common on ASR for the opinion of anyone who might buy in to some audiophile "voodoo" to be discounted. This is especially true on the attitude towards purely subjective audio reviews, which are often dismissed on the site. "That nutjob talks up expensive cables" or "believes something idiotic" so "his reviews can be dismissed as poppycock."
This is where I tend to bring up the point I had just made: the fact a reviewer, or any audiophile, can imagine sonic differences doesn't mean they can't also be pretty good at identifying sonic differences that ARE there. That biases exist doesn't mean they are responsible for making all our perception inaccurate or unreliable (otherwise...how would we find the front door everyday, or recognize our family's voice on the phone...or...). If my audio pal says he hears a difference with his new expensive USB cable, yes I'm going to don my skeptic's hat. If he tells me he's having trouble with exaggerated bass response with his big new speakers, then that's entirely plausible so I can accept his claim and try to help out.
So it's really, for me, a point to make about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I can in fact understand someone saying "I'm looking for more reliable, objective information on audio gear than typically supplied in a subjective review." I get it. It's just when this crosses over to "therefore such reviews are useless" that I push back. I have been led to plenty of gear that I've loved via the reports of subjective reviewers or other audiophiles, including those with whom I may disagree over certain audio tweak stuff. One can learn to weed through the more obvious B.S. IMO.
I have little doubt your systems sound very impressive!