Interesting and worrying article on the challanges facing the vinyl manufacturing industry..

[o0OBillO0o]

While your looking for that^^ anything on vinyl is much more fun no matter the discrete or continuous sourcing.


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[cmalak]

CMALAK,
If we agree that the vinyl revival has legs and is gaining momentum, then I wonder what public companies, if any, would stand to benefit. It would be interesting to identify an investment play based on growing vinyl production and retail sales. My initial thought is that for most big media or industrial companies that would participate, the vinyl related business would be a small segment of the companies' total profits. And it is not as if we expect a commensurate revival of record stores in a world where lowest price physical media retail purchases are a mouse click away.

BayStBroker...I like the way you think :thumbsup: but as far as I know, there are no publicly traded companies, except for the media companies (music labels, which are part of larger conglomerate publicly-traded entertainment companies) that stand to benefit, and vinyl sales, even if it were to grow rapidly from the current small $ base, would be a rounding error in their overall financials and hence would not be an investable theme. As for the machinery suppliers (whether its cutting lathes, printing presses, and so on), all those companies are now out of business, which is why all the existing equipment in the field is repurposed used machinery that have been around 30-40 yrs+. I am sure there are small machining companies that make ad hoc replacement parts for the various printing press machines and so on, but these tend to be smaller and privately-held companies. My guess for new capital investments on the equipment side to be made, would require new vinyl sales (excluding used LPs) to be 10X what it is today to justify the R&D and capital costs to invest in building new pressing equipment. On the PVC front, that stuff is a commodity but not sure who the players there would be.

As to whether the whole pick up in demand of vinyl LPs is a fad or not, I think there is a faddish element where young hipsters are flocking to vinyl because it's cool and hip for now, but whether that lasts or not, I am not sure. There will always be a core market of vinyl enthusiasts within the audiophile and music-loving communities but that will remain a limited market and should be comfortably served by the current vinyl pressing plants out there today.

I have tried researching this market (purely out of curiosity) and the frustrating thing is how little info is out there. Supposedly, Michael Fremer sent out a survey to all the vinyl pressing plants to gather information about how many LPs they print and sell annually because he maintains that the Nielsen reported numbers of vinyl sales way underestimate the reality (here it is: Approximately 73,985,000 Records Pressed Worldwide in 2014 So How Can 9.2 Million Sold Be Correct? (Updated 5/4/15) | Analog Planet). But there is clearly a dearth of reported information on vinyl sales, as well as highend audio sales, making this market very difficult to size and analyze.

 

[BlueFox]

As to whether the whole pick up in demand of vinyl LPs is a fad or not, I think there is a faddish element where young hipsters are flocking to vinyl because it's cool and hip for now, but whether that lasts or not, I am not sure. There will always be a core market of vinyl enthusiasts within the audiophile and music-loving communities but that will remain a limited market and should be comfortably served by the current vinyl pressing plants out there today.

This is exactly how vinyl will play out. The novelty will wear off after the new comers have trashed a few records, broken a stylus or two, and tire of all the associated hassle. While the audiophile market will continue, the new releases will decrease as the market contracts.

 

[o0OBillO0o]

Vinyl production worldwide is currently operating way above its capacity, and expensive materials, expert knowledge and antiquated techniques have led to to supply shortages and quality problems.

Like Myles said- ^^ This is weak. There are no facts to support any of this. factmag should do research and use facts.

 

[o0OBillO0o]

The article cites Andreas Lubich who is highly credible.

Do you have Andreas's facts? Specially about cited sentence I posted earlier?

I'll change my understanding if there is credible research. It looks to me that this factmag article is hearsay and feeding into paranoid investors.


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[mep]

And can you point us to resource that shows that analog converted to digital and back to analog is a real detriment? And not a phobia..


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If the music was originally recorded as analog and you have the option of going back to the original master tape to cut the reissue, which analog lover is going to elect to purchase a reissue that ran through two digital conversions stages? The answer is none of course. I should turn your original question back around on you and say please tell us how running an analog signal through two stages of digital conversion isn't a detriment to sound quality. Abbey Road released the mono LP collection straight from the tapes because of all of the complaining people did with the last stereo box set of LPs they released that were all sourced from the digital files. I know I didn't buy the stereo box LP set, but I did buy the mono LP set.

We can argue all day about how transparent today's converters are, but I don't think we should argue that today's converters are more transparent than the sound you obtain when you bypass them and keep the sound in the analog realm. And having said all of that, can LPs cut from a digital file sound really good? The answer is yes, they can. One listen to Neil Young Live at the Cellar Door will tell you that. And as good as this recording does sound, knowing it was originally recorded in analog make analog lovers ask themselves (and each other) how much better would this recording have sounded if we could have heard it from the master tape instead of a digital file?

 

[Mike]

It would surprise many Audiophiles to learn just how poor the ADC's are in most studios. Many are outdated.

Of the better, newer one's I've seen, this was most popular:

https://mytekdigital.com/professional/products/8x192-adda/

$2995 - and that was considered by the studio owners I spoke with, a big big spend. Most studios I saw were using the older version.

So the music is converted to digital using a $2995 ADC and then we convert it back to analog using a $10,000, $20,000 or $100,000 DCS DAC. Mytek loves to use the Sabre chips, the same SABRE chips found in most modest priced DAC's, including the Oppo. Is it just me or is something seriously messed up?

So if studios are not going to use DSD as common practice, this is why MQA makes most sense. It's a new encoding and decoding process. I think what we're using today (and certainly in previous years) is akin to the horse and buggy vs the automobile.

Until MQA becomes common, I have much more faith in a truthful reproduction going from master tape to lathe....and even then, the jury will be out for a very long time.

 

[rbbert]

Why back a lossy format like MQA? Why not have a hi-res format which ensures similar ADC and DAC instead? The cynical answer is that Merdian might make more money going the proprietary MQA way...

 

[Mike]

Interesting and worrying article on the challanges facing the vinyl manufactu...

Why back a lossy format like MQA? .

Aside from its sonic attributes, file size.

After the announcements at Munich, things will get clearer and interest will start to rock and roll.

 

[mep]

Why back a lossy format like MQA? Why not have a hi-res format which ensures similar ADC and DAC instead? The cynical answer is that Merdian might make more money going the proprietary MQA way...

I think it is going to be very interesting to sit back and watch what happens with MQA. So when are MQA files going to be available for download? How long does it take for Meridian to create an MQA file that has been authenticated by the original recording studio and the artist and it contains the A/D-D/A information in the MQA file so it lights up the blue button on your decoder and lets you know you have a real MQA file?

 

[mep]

Re: Interesting and worrying article on the challanges facing the vinyl manufactu...

Aside from its sonic attributes, file size.

After the announcements at Munich, things will get clearer and interest will start to rock and roll.

I thought it was going to be after the announcements at CES last January? We are now into the 5th month of 2015 and I don't think there is one MQA file available for purchase.

 

[Mike]

I think it is going to be very interesting to sit back and watch what happens with MQA. So when are MQA files going to be available for download? How long does it take for Meridian to create an MQA file that has been authenticated by the original recording studio and the artist and it contains the A/D-D/A information in the MQA file so it lights up the blue button on your decoder and lets you know you have a real MQA file?

Mark - they've been at it for several years now (transferring files from tape to MQA). We haven't heard about it because NDA's are quite effective for that. I think we know who is going to be one of the distributors of the files (the same ones we get our hi res files from now). When? SOON...VERY SOON.

 

[mep]

I read where they have been in talks for 3 years with studios, but I hadn't read that Meridian has been building an MQA catalog for 3 years.

 

[o0OBillO0o]

It would surprise many Audiophiles to learn just how poor the ADC's are in most studios. Many are outdated.

Of the better, newer one's I've seen, this was most popular:

https://mytekdigital.com/professional/products/8x192-adda/

$2995 - and that was considered by the studio owners I spoke with, a big big spend. Most studios I saw were using the older version.

So the music is converted to digital using a $2995 ADC and then we convert it back to analog using a $10,000, $20,000 or $100,000 DCS DAC. Mytek loves to use the Sabre chips, the same SABRE chips found in most modest priced DAC's, including the Oppo. Is it just me or is something seriously messed up?

So if studios are not going to use DSD as common practice, this is why MQA makes most sense. It's a new encoding and decoding process. I think what we're using today (and certainly in previous years) is akin to the horse and buggy vs the automobile.

Until MQA becomes common, I have much more faith in a truthful reproduction going from master tape to lathe....and even then, the jury will be out for a very long time.

Mike- like MQA engineers have related. MQA views the ADC and DAC much like a Camera views it's lens. When you know that a certain lens shifts "blue" say 4% in direction away from it's true color value, the camera's DSP engine will correct for it's aberration or color inaccuracies. Then the we get a near perfect corrected output. It's science!

Essentially, and I know I am preaching to the choir when I talk to you Mike, MQA is that DSP engine that examines the noise profiles of various ADC & DACs and when the the MQA decoder at our end receives this metadata or information, it will process the noise profiles to correct for the inaccuracies of the ADCs and DACs, no matter how cheap at the studio, introduce.

Side comment, I wonder if Vinyl's bandwidth supports MQA? Since is an analog to analog process.. yes analog to analog, MQA fixes the incoming analog and outgoing analog signal. Yes it does it digitally or in a descrete and not contious domain.

 

[Mike]

Bill - that will be very interesting to see. Will the MQA process give us better vinyl? Oh the irony...

 

[o0OBillO0o]

If the music was originally recorded as analog and you have the option of going back to the original master tape to cut the reissue, which analog lover is going to elect to purchase a reissue that ran through two digital conversions stages? The answer is none of course. I should turn your original question back around on you and say please tell us how running an analog signal through two stages of digital conversion isn't a detriment to sound quality. Abbey Road released the mono LP collection straight from the tapes because of all of the complaining people did with the last stereo box set of LPs they released that were all sourced from the digital files. I know I didn't buy the stereo box LP set, but I did buy the mono LP set.

We can argue all day about how transparent today's converters are, but I don't think we should argue that today's converters are more transparent than the sound you obtain when you bypass them and keep the sound in the analog realm. And having said all of that, can LPs cut from a digital file sound really good? The answer is yes, they can. One listen to Neil Young Live at the Cellar Door will tell you that. And as good as this recording does sound, knowing it was originally recorded in analog make analog lovers ask themselves (and each other) how much better would this recording have sounded if we could have heard it from the master tape instead of a digital file?

I like your idealism, can you show us where the studio has had to option to go back to the original analog tapes, the original, and not used any digital to alter the sound?

You make an "Analog Lover" sound very myopic. it would be not wise to assume that today digital systems have not been a part of current re-masters.

Ah point taken about "I should turn your original question back around on you and say please tell us how running an analog signal through two stages of digital conversion isn't a detriment to sound quality."

There is a debated AES study by Myers and Moran, google will get you there, and there is always Monty - https://wiki.xiph.org/Videos/Digital_Show_and_Tell Watch the video and read the article

I can only cite the references since I have not, "done this myself."

Today's converters aren't completely transparent according to Meridian MQA folks. Hence they are accounting for their abberations and colorations in the MQA metadata. However, many may find the converters good enough. But that is not why were are here. side note I run a McIntosh MEN220 that as a AD/DA DSP engine and it improves my enjoyment of my music, but I cannot quantify what it does.

Thank you for confirming that Digitally sourced Vinyl is a viable solution. Michael Fremer touts this too Roxy Music Box Set Coming March 16th From Universal | Analog Planet

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1XHqoP-fvk


It's exciting times. I am from the 30s age group and I can tell you that my peers and even younger really enjoy listening to Vinyl AND digital. It's a win for all.

 

[o0OBillO0o]

Bill - that will be very interesting to see. Will the MQA process give us better vinyl? Oh the irony...

Truth is, I don't know- it was just a thought... It would be great for remasters. When the studio finds a real master tape or digs it out of Data Backup - Records Management - Shredding - Data Centers | Iron Mountain and during the tape encode from Analog to Digital. The converter's noise profile is recorded, corrected for in the mastering process, then when the record is converted back to analog, that converter's noise profile is recorded. I'd imagine it would have to be a Meridian Phono Stage that one would have to license that accepts the incoming analog signal and finds the low noise carrier signal and does a hybrid analog and digital correction before the signal gets to the amplifications stages.. if anything you heard a hair-brained idea here first.

 

[mep]

I like your idealism, can you show us where the studio has had to option to go back to the original analog tapes, the original, and not used any digital to alter the sound?

I already gave you an example. Abbey Road did that with the Beatles mono box LP set that was recently released. Every major recording studio that has vaults full of master tapes could do the same thing if they chose to assuming the tapes are still in good condition.

You make an "Analog Lover" sound very myopic. it would be not wise to assume that today digital systems have not been a part of current re-masters.

There are plenty of LP reissues in the market place that were sourced from digital files. In fact, one has to perform due diligence if your desire is to only buy an LP reissue that was cut from the original master tape. You not only have to read each line about the release, you have to read between the lines as well. Some companies try to hide/obscure the fact that the LP was sourced from a digital file.

Ah point taken about "I should turn your original question back around on you and say please tell us how running an analog signal through two stages of digital conversion isn't a detriment to sound quality."

There is a debated AES study by Myers and Moran, google will get you there, and is alway Monty - https://wiki.xiph.org/Videos/Digital_Show_and_Tell Watch the video and read the article

The Meyers and Moran work has been thoroughly discredited due to its numerous flaws and I continue to be surprised anytime someone brings this up as a body of work that needs to be taken seriously.

I can only cite the references since I have not, "done this myself."

Today's converters aren't completely transparent according to Meridian MQA folks. Hence they are accounting for their abberations and colorations in the MQA metadata. However, many may find the converters good enough. But that is not why were are here. side note I run a McIntosh MEN220 that as a AD/DA DSP engine and it improves my enjoyment of my music, but I cannot quantify what it does.

Thank you for confirming that Digitally sourced Vinyl is a viable solution. Michael Fremer touts this too Roxy Music Box Set Coming March 16th From Universal | Analog Planet

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1XHqoP-fvk


It's exciting times. I am from the 30s age group and I can tell you that my peers and even younger really enjoy listening to Vinyl AND digital. It's a win for all.

In digital parlance, I am from the 30s age group too-I just happen to no longer be in that age group (sort of like the verbiage on a reissue LP that is trying to fool you into thinking it came from the original master tape when it proclaims it was 'sourced' from the original master tape).

And for the record, I enjoy listening to both analog and digital as well. I know what my preferences are though.

 

[o0OBillO0o]

Okay- so we agree, more or less It remains that there is hasn't been a deterministic way show the AD/DA process is a detriment.

We have found that "Digitally sourced" Vinyl is a good thing and on a whole music listening is increasing worldwide.

Most of all the worrying challenges of manufacturers is the risk of keeping up with production with the unknown vote from consumer dollars that will meet their next capacity. Some advocacy group should be running the numbers on the demand signals from consumers.

 

[mep]

Okay- so we agree, more or less It remains that there is hasn't been a deterministic way show the AD/DA process is a detriment.

I would have to say less than more for right now with regards to how much agreement we have together on this subject. As for the lack of a "deterministic way to show the AD/DA process is a detriment" I guess you need to define what the detriment is in reference to so we aren't playing a semantics word game. I hope that you don't think you can run an analog signal through two digital conversion processes and expect no changes to the sound. Degradation occurs even in digital to digital conversions (PCM to DSD or DSD to PCM for instance). If you don't believe this, talk to mastering engineers like Bruce Brown who do this for a living.

We have found that "Digitally sourced" Vinyl is a good thing and on a whole music listening is increasing worldwide.

Please define your idea of why digitally sourced vinyl is a "good thing." Is it good because it is making a reissue available that might not otherwise be? I will say this againeople who love analog and LPs are not going to be purchasing LPs made from digital masters if the same LP is available from the original analog tape. Will analog people abandon their LPs and sell off their vinyl rigs after MQA files become available? Time will tell. We will keep an eye out for Mike selling his rig.