I'm leaving high end audio...

I believe one of the basic points is being missed here. The point is expanding and the continuation of our hobby. I understand that most of us that have been around a while know how to shop for good used items and can come up with the occasional deal.

People just sticking their toes into the water of our hobby do not. The chances of a neophyte purchasing a used item as their entry into this wonderful world of hi-end audio is slim to none. With very few B&M stores for these people to go to and learn their only real resource is to research, mainly shows and magazines. This is where the industry is missing as a whole.

Back in my day selling to and teaching new audio customers I could assist people getting their first taste of good audio. Now what is that customer to do? Sometimes we used to call it flagship selling. Show the best but then bring them down to their price level and explain how those technologies have been translated to the more affordable products. This is severely missing now. If they are going to "push" their best a smarter company will also show their entry level and make the comparisons. This is difficult with this industrial's tendency of emphasizing only the top (shows and magazines especially, the main information pipeline). This will hurt the hobby as a whole in the long run because an opportunity to expand to new people, new enthusiasts are being missed.
 
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Randy Myers said:
I believe one of the basic points is being missed here. The point is expanding and the continuation of our hobby. I understand that most of us that have been around a while know how to shop for good used items and can come up with the occasional deal.

People just sticking their toes into the water of our hobby do not. The chances of a neophyte purchasing a used item as their entry into this wonderful world of hi-end audio is slim to none. With very few B&M stores for these people to go to and learn their only real resource is to research, mainly shows and magazines. This is where the industry is missing as a whole.

Back in my day selling to and teaching new audio customers I could assist people getting their first taste of good audio. Now what is that customer too do? Sometimes we used to call it flagship selling. Show the best but then bring them down to their price level and explain how those technologies have been translated to the more affordable products. This is severely missing now. If they are going to "push" their best a smarter company will also show their entry level and make the comparisons. This is difficult with this industrial's tendency of emphasizing only the top (shows and magazines especially, the main information pipeline). This will hurt the hobby as a whole in the long run because an opportunity to expand to new people, new enthusiasts are being missed.
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Randy you contradict yourself. You said you used to show the flagship then move to the more affordable then bemoan those who show the flagship at shows. Don't you think a consumer is wise enough to know there's something in that line more affordable if needed or ask? One of the benefits of shows is talking to the manufacturers or their reps. I've met Andrew Jones, Richard Schram, Jeff Rowland, Ron Sutherland and many more, that's with just casual browsing. I've even met the infamous Mike Bovaird, LOL

Things change and consumers learn to adapt. I belong to a few groups on social media and don't recall anyone posting they can't find any gear. A lot of people asking for recommendations. I guess it's something but most recommend what they own or the flavor of the month so folks do need to excercise some discretion.

Maybe we should start a new thread about what's positive in the audio world.
 
I don't understand people feeling a need to get more people in the hobby???? Why.
If they're young, in there 20s and 30s, they're not going to want to hang out with me. And I probably have little in common with them myself.

I know plenty of people socially right now. I honestly couldn't care less if people were joining or hemorrhaging. I am not so happy to see some that I know die. But thats a part of my age.
 
Kingrex said:
I don't understand people feeling a need to get more people in the hobby???? Why.
If they're young, in there 20s and 30s, they're not going to want to hang out with me. And I probably have little in common with them myself.

I know plenty of people socially right now. I honestly couldn't care less if people were joining or hemorrhaging. I am not so happy to see some that I know die. But thats a part of my age.
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For what it’s worth, I believe it to be in the best interest of anyone involved in this hobby to encourage new people to get involved with it. Without an influx of new blood, any pursuit is doomed to die off, but as it declines the resources available to those still involved with it will steadily decline until it does.

Frankly, I doubt that many people outside of our little sphere of interest even know this hobby still exists. Additionally, many stereotypes prevail, some of which seem justified such as an absurd financial outlay being required to build a satisfying setup. Businesses must see a meaningful profit potential in order to serve this industry, or they won’t do so and the resources available to all of us will continue to dwindle. When’s the last time you encountered a numismatist, or even worse, a philatelist? I suppose that it may be inevitable that we go the way of the dinosaurs - old pursuits die off all the time - but I see value in what we do and what we’ve learned and would rather not see that knowledge die off. Selfish of me, I suppose, but then I’m not going door knocking and handing out pamphlets, either.
 
2FarGone said:
For what it’s worth, I believe it to be in the best interest of anyone involved in this hobby to encourage new people to get involved with it. Without an influx of new blood, any pursuit is doomed to die off, but as it declines the resources available to those still involved with it will steadily decline until it does.
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Why do you care if it dies off. I bet your over 55. So what? Its not going to impact you. Its not something I would encourage my kid to get into. Not unless I was showing them how to make a $1400 Vanatoo system with sub sound best in their home. Or how to make a home theater that doubles as 2 channel perform well. I think showing people how to setup a system is what's important. Not encouraging them to spend tens of thousands or more on a stereo.
 
Mike said:
When we think of the HiFi market globally, we can’t ignore the demands of certain markets (Asia) for manufacturers to keep pushing not only the performance envelope, but the cost envelope. One particular cable company only developed the “gold” line because their regular lines weren’t expensive enough. Young Asian buyers driven to impress drive a lot of the prices we see today.

I have a lot of thoughts on the underlying message of this thread. I often ask why nobody is talking about the golden ear, reference products of only 10-15 years ago.

I hear people bemoaning the prices and I say to myself, “well, what’s wrong with a pair of Stradivari’s from 15 years ago?” Are they shit now? Did one of Franco Serblin’s masterpieces suddenly become the AM radio of speakers? Do you honestly think the ARC REF250’s, which can be had for less than $10k a pair today, just begin sucking because there is a new version costing 6 figures? You do realize, circuit designs don’t change THAT much. I’m sure the new one is great, but if we are chasing value, well…

Is the REF5SE or REF10 suddenly shitty preamps? What about the CJ GAT2? Did the Bryston 28SST2’s suddenly become dog poop? Revel Salon 2, a speaker that was on the class A stereophile list for what? 20 years? Suddenly become unlistenable? A pair of XD Avantgarde’s don’t have the finishing touches of the new version, but since when does the physics of a horn change that much? The coveted Mcintosh 2301’s are garbage now? The best Lumin ever made was the original, and it was just called “The Lumin”, later renamed the A1. I sold one the other day that we took on trade for $1200. Find me another digital product for 10x that price that sounds better. That Wolfson DAC chip was pure gold.

I could go on….but you get the point. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY but me is talking about these “top dog” items from only 10-15 years ago. Why?
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This is so nice for me to come here and read this from you. Thanks for keeping it real Mike!
 
Mr Peabody said:
Randy you contradict yourself. You said you used to show the flagship then move to the more affordable then bemoan those who show the flagship at shows. Don't you think a consumer is wise enough to know there's something in that line more affordable if needed or ask? One of the benefits of shows is talking to the manufacturers or their reps. I've met Andrew Jones, Richard Schram, Jeff Rowland, Ron Sutherland and many more, that's with just casual browsing. I've even met the infamous Mike Bovaird, LOL

Things change and consumers learn to adapt. I belong to a few groups on social media and don't recall anyone posting they can't find any gear. A lot of people asking for recommendations. I guess it's something but most recommend what they own or the flavor of the month so folks do need to excercise some discretion.

Maybe we should start a new thread about what's positive in the audio world.
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It is completely different at a B&M store and being able to talk with the people, get a reasonable budget, etc. Show them items in their range, maybe s brief mention of the higher models but let the customer know how the tech is used in lower models. This is definitely NOT something that can go on at a show. Back in those days people could go to their local store and learn about this amazing hobby. It simply is not the case now. Not a contradiction whatsoever my friend.
 
Kingrex said:
Why do you care if it dies off. I bet your over 55. So what? Its not going to impact you. Its not something I would encourage my kid to get into. Not unless I was showing them how to make a $1400 Vanatoo system with sub sound best in their home. Or how to make a home theater that doubles as 2 channel perform well. I think showing people how to setup a system is what's important. Not encouraging them to spend tens of thousands or more on a stereo.
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I care a lot. Anything I love I want to continue even after I am gone. I love music. I want music to continue, and the enjoyment of music.
 
Mike said:
Is the REF5SE or REF10 suddenly shitty preamps? What about the CJ GAT2? Did the Bryston 28SST2’s suddenly become dog poop? Revel Salon 2, a speaker that was on the class A stereophile list for what? 20 years? Suddenly become unlistenable? A pair of XD Avantgarde’s don’t have the finishing touches of the new version, but since when does the physics of a horn change that much? The coveted Mcintosh 2301’s are garbage now? The best Lumin ever made was the original, and it was just called “The Lumin”, later renamed the A1. I sold one the other day that we took on trade for $1200. Find me another digital product for 10x that price that sounds better. That Wolfson DAC chip was pure gold.

I could go on….but you get the point. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY but me is talking about these “top dog” items from only 10-15 years ago. Why?
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I still use the Lumin A1 I bought here via the arrangement you had with Lumin. About 4-5 years ago I picked up a used X1 to compare it with and.... I didn't care for it. The X1 sounded hard and kind of forward to me. The X1 digitally out to a Luxman D10X was an improvement but the A1 still had winning attributes. I tried the X1 power supply with the A1 and it diminished the charm of the A1 as well. When people use adjectives to describe the X1's sound as warm, natural, analogue, or similar, it doesn't add up to me. The A1 sounds natural and unforced in that comparison.
 
Randy Myers said:
I believe one of the basic points is being missed here. The point is expanding and the continuation of our hobby. I understand that most of us that have been around a while know how to shop for good used items and can come up with the occasional deal.

People just sticking their toes into the water of our hobby do not. The chances of a neophyte purchasing a used item as their entry into this wonderful world of hi-end audio is slim to none. With very few B&M stores for these people to go to and learn their only real resource is to research, mainly shows and magazines. This is where the industry is missing as a whole.

Back in my day selling to and teaching new audio customers I could assist people getting their first taste of good audio. Now what is that customer to do? Sometimes we used to call it flagship selling. Show the best but then bring them down to their price level and explain how those technologies have been translated to the more affordable products. This is severely missing now. If they are going to "push" their best a smarter company will also show their entry level and make the comparisons. This is difficult with this industrial's tendency of emphasizing only the top (shows and magazines especially, the main information pipeline). This will hurt the hobby as a whole in the long run because an opportunity to expand to new people, new enthusiasts are being missed.
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Randy, I agree to some extent with what you say. I post on reddit to help newbies and pay it forward. There are a lot of people there asking about going the used route and most people recommend going that route or the cheap chi-fi gear. There are quite a bit of bad recommendations as well. There is a lot of animosity towards moderately high end and very high end gear and even mid fi gear. A lot of people there think that most high end gear is a sham and offer no benefits compared to lower end gear. They think that all DAC's and all amps sound the same and many are ASR types and say we cannot trust our ears which we all know is not true. I have gotten into some very heated discussions there. Just the other day, some one on reddit was asking about the Marantz Model 30. My son and I went to a mom and pop shop here and compared it to the Marantz PM-KI Ruby with the same speakers and CD player. I told the guy that the 30 sounded flat and muddy in comparison and that the Ruby was much better and how there is much better than the 30. Even the salesman who is a friend agreed. Both amps use the same circuitry except the Ruby uses higher end caps and was tuned by Ken Ishiwata to sound warm and romantic with a tonally rich and deep midrange. I caught so much crap from ASR types who said it can't be and that I was imagining the differences. I find this so sad that there are people who believe that we cannot trust our ears. When I posted results of double blind tests that we have done at my house with several people, they shit on my results.

The loss of mom and pop shops is so unfortunate as there really is no one to teach newbies what to look for in gear and sound. There are 3 shops in the Twin Cities that are mom and pop shops and one of them is of little help as the 1 salesman who has worked there for 30 years is so biased and shits on gear that they do not sell. It is such a turn off.
 
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Mechnutt said:
Randy, I agree to some extent with what you say. I post on reddit to help newbies and pay it forward. There are a lot of people there asking about going the used route and most people recommend going that route or the cheap chi-fi gear. There is quite a bit of bad recommendations as well. There is a lot of animosity towards moderately high end and very high end gear and even mid fi gear. A lot of people there think that most high end gear is a sham and offer no benefits compared to lower end gear. They think that all DAC's and all amps sound the same and many are ASR types and say we cannot trust our ears which we all know is not true. I have gotten into some very heated discussions there. Just the other day, some one on reddit was asking about the Marantz Model 30. My son and I went to a mom and pop shop hear and compared it to the Marantz PM-KI Ruby with the same speakers and CD player. I told the guy that the 30 sounded flat and muddy in comparison and that the Ruby was much better and how there is much better than the 30. Even the salesman who is a friend agreed. Both amps use the same circuitry except the Ruby uses higher end caps and was tuned y Ken Ishiwata to sound warm and romantic with a tonally rich and deep midrange. I caught so much crap from ASR types who said it can't be and that I was imagining the differences. I find this so sad that there are people who believe that we cannot trust our ears. When I posted results of double blind tests that we have done at my house with several people, the shit on my results.

The loss of mom and pop shops is so unfortunate as there really is no one to teach newbies what to look for in gear and sound. There are 3 shops in the Twin Cities that are mom and pop shops and one of them is of little help as the 1 salesman who has worked there for 30 years is so biased and shits on gear that they do not sell. It is such a turn off.
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These people appear to be far more interested in promoting the propaganda of their ideology than in building a great stereo. If they want to worship at that altar of mediocrity that’s their right, but they have no reasonable expectation that those of us who really appreciate good sound will join them there.
 
We had our neighbors over for movie night last week. We listened to some vinyl and some good multichannel SACD’s along with a movie. They were blown away.

Some of their comments were very telling:

“I wish I’d never gotten rid of my vinyl. CD’s didn’t do it for me. I just stopped listening. This sounds amazing.”

“I felt it was impossible to keep up, with companies introducing new products every year and changes making what I’d already bought obsolete. I just gave up.”

“How old is this stuff? “ Me: The 2 channel amps and speakers are about 15 years old. (SF Amati Futura and McIntosh MC 2301) “Really? It looks brand new and sounds fantastic!”

So here was a group of people that have disposable income, drive fancy cars, live in very nice houses, and can easily afford a very nice stereo system. Yet they had just given up for a variety of reasons.

While I understand the high priced statement pieces and the Asian market, it seems we are living in a tree house and have pulled up the ladder.
 
Some here are lamenting the inflation that has hit audio equipment markets, but most of us are also in this hobby for a love of music. IMO music playback technology is advancing the fastest in the digital domain - DACs, streamers and associated software, and network technology. But as prices for audio technology rise to fund the innovation of sophisticated products from a boutique industry, we should not forget that access to the music, old and new, at multiple quality levels, and in volumes and variety beyond imagination only a few years ago - is now available at our fingertips at VERY attractive prices through streaming services. In this light maybe our hobby isn't such a bad deal after all?
 
Mechnutt said:
I caught so much crap from ASR types who said it can't be and that I was imagining the differences. I find this so sad that there are people who believe that we cannot trust our ears. When I posted results of double blind tests that we have done at my house with several people, they shit on my results.
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As Forrest Gump said "you can't fix stupid".
 
GSOphile said:
Some here are lamenting the inflation that has hit audio equipment markets, but most of us are also in this hobby for a love of music. IMO music playback technology is advancing the fastest in the digital domain - DACs, streamers and associated software, and network technology. But as prices for audio technology rise to fund the innovation of sophisticated products from a boutique industry, we should not forget that access to the music, old and new, at multiple quality levels, and in volumes and variety beyond imagination only a few years ago - is now available at our fingertips at VERY attractive prices through streaming services. In this light maybe our hobby isn't such a bad deal after all?
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So true. You can build a fantastic streamer for $3k. Or buy one for $4k. And its amazing sound quality.
 
Kingrex said:
So true. You can build a fantastic streamer for $3k. Or buy one for $4k. And its amazing sound quality.
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But at some point $3-4K streamers, DAC, preamps or amps just turn into replaceable items. Your First Sound Mark3SI preamp was a benchmark preamp at the time your purchased it. Its price reflected the craftsmanship and its place in the market. You still list it as your first piece of equipment for a reason. Sometimes quality comes with a hefty price tag and it comes down to the consumer to decide at what price does the quality merit the price. I think it has alway been that way no matter product or interest. We just use today's economy as our benchmark.
 
Darrel said:
But at some point $3-4K streamers, DAC, preamps or amps just turn into replaceable items. Your First Sound Mark3SI preamp was a benchmark preamp at the time your purchased it. Its price reflected the craftsmanship and its place in the market. You still list it as your first piece of equipment for a reason. Sometimes quality comes with a hefty price tag and it comes down to the consumer to decide at what price does the quality merit the price. I think it has alway been that way no matter product or interest. We just use today's economy as our benchmark.
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Very true. I upgraded it 3 times. It started out at about $5500. I have about $12k into it now.

If I did it over, what I have learned, I would probably use a DEQX Pre 8 to be my DAC, Preamp and electronic crossover to run my Tri amped speaker. That would have been $20k in my pocket to cover the $12,500 DEQX unit.

I still need a Marchand for $4k or so.

$12.5k could have done what $25k is doing, and done it better.

FWIW, First Sound is still probably the best preamp you can buy if your mixing componants. The only amp it did not drive was a Thrax. Some equipmemt pairs better as a Synergistic assembly.
 
I don't really understand all the angst over ultra high priced gear. If someone wants to make it and someone wants to buy it, doesn't impact me and its not my business. I've heard some of the half million dollar speakers and $300k dacs, etc., and I think they sound great. But the delta in sound quality between my system and the ultra gear is very small relative to the delta in price, so I'm happy. It also seems that there are more choices in high quality, lower cost gear than ever before. Its not like the ultra gear is replacing lower cost offerings. I was at the Toronto show recently. Saw a handful of near million dollar rooms, but many more filled with relatively affordable gear that , to my ears, was quite impressive. And the Canadian dealers were great to visit with-living up to the Canadian reputation for friendliness. I'm betting the same will be true of CAF.

I've not experienced dealers or reviewers insisting that I have to pay what a house costs to get a good system, but if I did, I can choose as I see fit. Even the big magazines devote considerable effort to covering lower cost gear. They deserve a lot of criticism for how conflicts of interest are treated-as do lots of YouTubers-but its a bum rap to suggest they only cover ultra priced gear.

I also understand, sort of, that there is an undercurrent between certain dealers on some of the forums. If some participants accept undisclosed goodies as a quid pro quo for favorable posts, that's reprehensible in my book and I hope its exposed and names are called. A bigger problem for me is the incivility often found on forums. Keyboard courage can be tempting to us all but casually referring to someone as an "idiot" or a "nitwit" says much more about the accuser than the target. None of us are perfect-I'm certainly not-but this should be easily solved by the application of basic manners. That stuff destroys reasonable discussion and I wish forum moderators had zero tolerance for it, but the folks who own the forums have every right to run them as they see fit-participation is not mandatory. Even the ASR types, who can be very difficult, are just people who have a different opinion about audio. Doesn't make them evil.

Of what has been discussed, I do lament the disappearance of brick and mortar stores. Makes it tough for those of us who live in audio deserts and makes the shows really important for many of us. Looking forward to CAF and the chance to listen to great gear and visit people who have climbed down the same rabbit whole as me.

Just my thoughts.
 
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