I'm leaving high end audio...

Michael. Thank you again for your honesty and insight. Takes courage to be an outsider and expose the truth. Given my experience, have no reason to doubt your answer.

I left WBF because, for me, it was toxic. Steve, one of the owners, was certainly one shining exception. Please ban me for what I said on this thread. Furthermore, I would have been banned had I tried to post my previous comments on that site. No desire to ever return. Truth, at times, is not one of its primary forum priorities. Best. Gordon
 
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High end audio does not equal WBF. It appears you are dragging an entire industry, community into your beef with WBF. I have no dog in this hunt and you and I have learned to get along, I'm trying to be objective.

My perception in the beginning of "high end" audio there were sincere enthusiasts like Paul Klipsch, Saul Marantz, etc. Somewhere along the line there were probably companies that pushed the integrity of good marketing. Today I do feel many brands are too expensive, overpriced. With that being said we can't deny in general as you go up in price you also go up in quality. There's always exceptions to the rule. Any of us who have been in the hobby and started with modest gear and worked up can't deny some brands are better than others. If not, why didn't we keep what we had.

"Audiophiles" are not a monolith. Some of us, buy based on listening, others may foolishly buy based on reviews or just buying based on price or "just give me something good", buying the name. Audiophiles are one of the most stereotyped communities out there.

I agree there should be transparency. We also can't deny the influence of those online or YouTube who claim a brand is the latest greatest thing. Conversely those influences that also say there's no difference in cables and all tweaks are Placebo.

The law says "buyer beware" and bottomline we all have to make our own way. I've quit trying to argue I state my experience and encourage to try themselves. I've seen some eventually upgrading cables, moving up from Wiim, there's hope. The ones I feel sorry for are those who naysay everything and they, think I'm crazy, LOL

I'm in the camp you can have your cake and eat it too. we can have a great system and still listen to our music on it.

I realize you have a situation going on and hope the best for you and the truth coming out. Maybe keep your targets in line and don't confuse what's going on, with the entire industry.
 
High end audio does not equal WBF. It appears you are dragging an entire industry, community into your beef with WBF. I have no dog in this hunt and you and I have learned to get along, I'm trying to be objective.

My perception in the beginning of "high end" audio there were sincere enthusiasts like Paul Klipsch, Saul Marantz, etc. Somewhere along the line there were probably companies that pushed the integrity of good marketing. Today I do feel many brands are too expensive, overpriced. With that being said we can't deny in general as you go up in price you also go up in quality. There's always exceptions to the rule. Any of us who have been in the hobby and started with modest gear and worked up can't deny some brands are better than others. If not, why didn't we keep what we had.

"Audiophiles" are not a monolith. Some of us, buy based on listening, others may foolishly buy based on reviews or just buying based on price or "just give me something good", buying the name. Audiophiles are one of the most stereotyped communities out there.

I agree there should be transparency. We also can't deny the influence of those online or YouTube who claim a brand is the latest greatest thing. Conversely those influences that also say there's no difference in cables and all tweaks are Placebo.

The law says "buyer beware" and bottomline we all have to make our own way. I've quit trying to argue I state my experience and encourage to try themselves. I've seen some eventually upgrading cables, moving up from Wiim, there's hope. The ones I feel sorry for are those who naysay everything and they, think I'm crazy, LOL

I'm in the camp you can have your cake and eat it too. we can have a great system and still listen to our music on it.

I realize you have a situation going on and hope the best for you and the truth coming out. Maybe keep your targets in line and don't confuse what's going on, with the entire industry.

Hi Mr. Peabody - I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

I agree you and I have no issues and I have no issue with your post.

For me more of the shaking-my-head is actually aimed at the legacy media calling up companies to try and sabotage non-magazine people (yes I have names of who made the calls and who they called but I will not say it publicly).

I did make sure to say in my article there are exception for sure. But generally speaking I personally feel the industry is in the shadow of crazies.

WBF to me is such a circus-show I just can't waste energy on them.

Hearing the same first-hand account from multiple people over the last 6 months about certain people in the legacy media has really made me feel this hobby has totally lost its way.

They need to spend less time trying to torpedo others and more time trying to be relevant again for the first time in 10 years.
 
Hey Michael, I also believe that you and I have had our issues, but I also believe we have learned to get along. With that said I believe that the industry as a whole has been heading in the wrong direction.

Back in the day, when I first got into higher level hi-fi companies such as Nakamichi, KEF, Ohm, ADS, Yamaha, McIntosh, Harmon Kardon, Conrad Johnson, ARC, Dalquist among many others were the pinnacle, the goal we strived for. The point was that if you have a decent income and were willing to save all were in reach.

There were also steps that could be obtained for the average person to get into, to enjoy our hobby. Yes, there are still steps, but the levels have gotten far too extreme. When a new amplifier, or speakers, etc., cost as much as a working-class family's home, not to mention more than what luxury automobile costs, the industry as a whole is becoming self-limiting. The vast majority of items that get both advertised and shown at the major audio shows are far above the budget and out of reach of any person just entering our hobby. Many/most of these items are far above what any working person could possibly dream of.

Yes, there are roads and products available. Unfortunately, these items take a back seat the much more expensive brethren. Recently reading audio magazines (I have subscription to two but will probably be dropping one or both) I am constantly amazed at what gets shown, advertised, talked about, etc. I would estimate that half of these such items cost more than a new luxury automobile, and many cost more than my house, which is in what is considered a rather exclusive neighborhood.

Any mention of "affordable" brands/models appear to be after thoughts. The level which hard work and saving in the past could be reach is no longer an option for a vast majority of households that may have interests in our hobby. It is a self-defeating lunacy for long term growth in our hobby.

Sure, there is a place for these astronomical products; but these should be the outliers, not the products that are being shown as the mainstream items in our hobby. There is also a sad side effect to this way of thinking and promoting our hobby. It directly leads to wild expectations and issues such as those that I recently read about in an audio magazine. Where a back and forth between a purchaser of one of these pieces, distributer, dealer, etc., It sounds like the purchaser appears to expect and assumes an issue arose because an item he purchased from a dealer on the other side of the country was not hand delivered and installed. He claims that issues could have been avoided (or this is what I gathered from the article) had this been done. An unreal expectation, yes; but a reasonable expectation or thought when a single piece of gear is costing upwards of what small house may cost in a vast majority of the country. And honestly, could a third party such as the dealer afford such on a single purchase? This seems like a vastly over expectation by the customer; but when theses sums are being spent on a single item...

The entry level (or entry level of items being shown at shows and advertised) in our hobby has become far too high for long term growth. This is my opinion.
 
Hey Michael, I also believe that you and I have had our issues, but I also believe we have learned to get along. With that said I believe that the industry as a whole has been heading in the wrong direction.

Back in the day, when I first got into higher level hi-fi companies such as Nakamichi, KEF, Ohm, ADS, Yamaha, McIntosh, Harmon Kardon, Conrad Johnson, ARC, Dalquist among many others were the pinnacle, the goal we strived for. The point was that if you have a decent income and were willing to save all were in reach.

There were also steps that could be obtained for the average person to get into, to enjoy our hobby. Yes, there are still steps, but the levels have gotten far too extreme. When a new amplifier, or speakers, etc., cost as much as a working-class family's home, not to mention more than what luxury automobile costs, the industry as a whole is becoming self-limiting. The vast majority of items that get both advertised and shown at the major audio shows are far above the budget and out of reach of any person just entering our hobby. Many/most of these items are far above what any working person could possibly dream of.

Yes, there are roads and products available. Unfortunately, these items take a back seat the much more expensive brethren. Recently reading audio magazines (I have subscription to two but will probably be dropping one or both) I am constantly amazed at what gets shown, advertised, talked about, etc. I would estimate that half of these such items cost more than a new luxury automobile, and many cost more than my house, which is in what is considered a rather exclusive neighborhood.

Any mention of "affordable" brands/models appear to be after thoughts. The level which hard work and saving in the past could be reach is no longer an option for a vast majority of households that may have interests in our hobby. It is a self-defeating lunacy for long term growth in our hobby.

Sure, there is a place for these astronomical products; but these should be the outliers, not the products that are being shown as the mainstream items in our hobby. There is also a sad side effect to this way of thinking and promoting our hobby. It directly leads to wild expectations and issues such as those that I recently read about in an audio magazine. Where a back and forth between a purchaser of one of these pieces, distributer, dealer, etc., It sounds like the purchaser appears to expect and assumes an issue arose because an item he purchased from a dealer on the other side of the country was not hand delivered and installed. He claims that issues could have been avoided (or this is what I gathered from the article) had this been done. An unreal expectation, yes; but a reasonable expectation or thought when a single piece of gear is costing upwards of what small house may cost in a vast majority of the country. And honestly, could a third party such as the dealer afford such on a single purchase? This seems like a vastly over expectation by the customer; but when theses sums are being spent on a single item...

The entry level (or entry level of items being shown at shows and advertised) in our hobby has become far too high for long term growth. This is my opinion.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Randy. Lot's of good points.

Yup - no issues. Those were from my dumb younger days. ;)
 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Randy. Lot's of good points.

Yup - no issues. Those were from my dumb younger days. ;)
When I was starting out, there was one publication that I subscribed to. It was called, "The Sensible Sound." I used to like it. I doubt it's still around.
 
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Hey Michael, I also believe that you and I have had our issues, but I also believe we have learned to get along. With that said I believe that the industry as a whole has been heading in the wrong direction.

Back in the day, when I first got into higher level hi-fi companies such as Nakamichi, KEF, Ohm, ADS, Yamaha, McIntosh, Harmon Kardon, Conrad Johnson, ARC, Dalquist among many others were the pinnacle, the goal we strived for. The point was that if you have a decent income and were willing to save all were in reach.

There were also steps that could be obtained for the average person to get into, to enjoy our hobby. Yes, there are still steps, but the levels have gotten far too extreme. When a new amplifier, or speakers, etc., cost as much as a working-class family's home, not to mention more than what luxury automobile costs, the industry as a whole is becoming self-limiting. The vast majority of items that get both advertised and shown at the major audio shows are far above the budget and out of reach of any person just entering our hobby. Many/most of these items are far above what any working person could possibly dream of.

Yes, there are roads and products available. Unfortunately, these items take a back seat the much more expensive brethren. Recently reading audio magazines (I have subscription to two but will probably be dropping one or both) I am constantly amazed at what gets shown, advertised, talked about, etc. I would estimate that half of these such items cost more than a new luxury automobile, and many cost more than my house, which is in what is considered a rather exclusive neighborhood.

Any mention of "affordable" brands/models appear to be after thoughts. The level which hard work and saving in the past could be reach is no longer an option for a vast majority of households that may have interests in our hobby. It is a self-defeating lunacy for long term growth in our hobby.

Sure, there is a place for these astronomical products; but these should be the outliers, not the products that are being shown as the mainstream items in our hobby. There is also a sad side effect to this way of thinking and promoting our hobby. It directly leads to wild expectations and issues such as those that I recently read about in an audio magazine. Where a back and forth between a purchaser of one of these pieces, distributer, dealer, etc., It sounds like the purchaser appears to expect and assumes an issue arose because an item he purchased from a dealer on the other side of the country was not hand delivered and installed. He claims that issues could have been avoided (or this is what I gathered from the article) had this been done. An unreal expectation, yes; but a reasonable expectation or thought when a single piece of gear is costing upwards of what small house may cost in a vast majority of the country. And honestly, could a third party such as the dealer afford such on a single purchase? This seems like a vastly over expectation by the customer; but when theses sums are being spent on a single item...

The entry level (or entry level of items being shown at shows and advertised) in our hobby has become far too high for long term growth. This is my opinion.
The rub is that WBF and many influencers make it apper your not worthy of being on a forum, your voice has no value and your system SUCKS if you don't spend huge sums of money.

Technology has not been going backwards. Inexpensive stereo of yesterday's, we're extremely satisfying. Enjoyable to listen to. It's media that makes you think they are not. It's media that makes you think you have to spend inordinate amounts of money to have good sound.
 
Hey Michael, I also believe that you and I have had our issues, but I also believe we have learned to get along. With that said I believe that the industry as a whole has been heading in the wrong direction.

Back in the day, when I first got into higher level hi-fi companies such as Nakamichi, KEF, Ohm, ADS, Yamaha, McIntosh, Harmon Kardon, Conrad Johnson, ARC, Dalquist among many others were the pinnacle, the goal we strived for. The point was that if you have a decent income and were willing to save all were in reach.

There were also steps that could be obtained for the average person to get into, to enjoy our hobby. Yes, there are still steps, but the levels have gotten far too extreme. When a new amplifier, or speakers, etc., cost as much as a working-class family's home, not to mention more than what luxury automobile costs, the industry as a whole is becoming self-limiting. The vast majority of items that get both advertised and shown at the major audio shows are far above the budget and out of reach of any person just entering our hobby. Many/most of these items are far above what any working person could possibly dream of.

Yes, there are roads and products available. Unfortunately, these items take a back seat the much more expensive brethren. Recently reading audio magazines (I have subscription to two but will probably be dropping one or both) I am constantly amazed at what gets shown, advertised, talked about, etc. I would estimate that half of these such items cost more than a new luxury automobile, and many cost more than my house, which is in what is considered a rather exclusive neighborhood.

Any mention of "affordable" brands/models appear to be after thoughts. The level which hard work and saving in the past could be reach is no longer an option for a vast majority of households that may have interests in our hobby. It is a self-defeating lunacy for long term growth in our hobby.

Sure, there is a place for these astronomical products; but these should be the outliers, not the products that are being shown as the mainstream items in our hobby. There is also a sad side effect to this way of thinking and promoting our hobby. It directly leads to wild expectations and issues such as those that I recently read about in an audio magazine. Where a back and forth between a purchaser of one of these pieces, distributer, dealer, etc., It sounds like the purchaser appears to expect and assumes an issue arose because an item he purchased from a dealer on the other side of the country was not hand delivered and installed. He claims that issues could have been avoided (or this is what I gathered from the article) had this been done. An unreal expectation, yes; but a reasonable expectation or thought when a single piece of gear is costing upwards of what small house may cost in a vast majority of the country. And honestly, could a third party such as the dealer afford such on a single purchase? This seems like a vastly over expectation by the customer; but when theses sums are being spent on a single item...

The entry level (or entry level of items being shown at shows and advertised) in our hobby has become far too high for long term growth. This is my opinion.

I get what you are saying and agree there is an abundance of gear only the 1% can afford. Magazines want to sell advertising and the product, think of a car magazine, a Porsche 911 will get more attention than a Corola. At the show's most bring their A game but there are more affordable options if you look. Cambridge is always there having a good time, look at Atoll, SPL, Advanced Paris. Then you still have brands like Rotel or NAD. Just because there is unobtainium don't mean everyone is left out. There's even the dirt cheap like Fozi or Wiim. We also have to consider someone is buying this mega dollar gear or the laws of economics would kick in and they wouldn't be around anymore.

I wonder how my own audio trajectory might have been different if some of these online products would have been around when I was getting into high end. Now that I think about it maybe not much, I bought my first Conrad Johnson from a store on the East coast seeing their website online. Out of business now they were great to work with.
 
The rub is that WBF and many influencers make it apper your not worthy of being on a forum, your voice has no value and your system SUCKS if you don't spend huge sums of money.

Technology has not been going backwards. Inexpensive stereo of yesterday's, we're extremely satisfying. Enjoyable to listen to. It's media that makes you think they are not. It's media that makes you think you have to spend inordinate amounts of money to have good sound.

Inexpensive may be enjoyable until you realize there's better. Everyone is pretty agreeable there are diminishing returns, however, when you hear a piece of gear that makes you realize your inexpensive gear sounds like inexpensive gear........

That doesn't mean you have to have, the most expensive system to sound good. I put my system together for me. It's not average but it's far from the most expensive. I can still enjoy my system after hearing friends systems that eclipse mine in cost.

I look at it a different way, I'm more concerned over the ASR and other naysayer types that may convince hobbyists not to explore, experiment. As an example, I don't care that some may have a Tyco or even the top Aurender which eclipse mine, my concern is more those who tell everyone a Wiim is just as good as the Aurender. In either case don't believe either of us, but do try for yourself and make up your own mind.
 
I have around $60k in my system. That is plenty of money to compete against most any high $ system. I don't think $10k will get you there.

So much comes down to tuning what you have.

I did sit in front of Mike Lavignes new sertup. The Gobel and Drina SET. Its $2M in system. It is the only system where I walked in and was immediately gobsmaked. My jaw hit the floor and all I could do is blubber thats amazing.

I have sat in front of a lot of Wilson, Magico type systems with Grypohon, DAG, Boulder etc. They are all extremely quiet and revealing. All sorts of control. But non make me think a well done, well tuned $50k system could not beat them for musical enjoyment.

That is where I beileve the magaines, influencers and WBF type chat places mislead the public.
 
FWIW my perception is there are things large speakers in a well designed room can do that smaller speakers can not.
Scale is one. Shear sense of.power is another. But a horn with 3 watts can also project scale and power. And there are decent horns out there for $40k and maybe less.
 
FWIW my perception is there are things large speakers in a well designed room can do that smaller speakers can not.
Scale is one. Shear sense of.power is another. But a horn with 3 watts can also project scale and power. And there are decent horns out there for $40k and maybe less.

I agree 1000% with this.

Of all the systems at all the price points in all the world I have heard, the one that sets my heart afire are my Tobian horn speakers with my 3.5 watt Aric Audio 2A3 amp or my Alan Eaton 45 mono blocks at only 1.6 watts.

Both running tubes from the 1930s, of course.

The AE's are under $2K and the AA is I think about $8K if I recall.
 
I agree 1000% with this.

Of all the systems at all the price points in all the world I have heard, the one that sets my heart afire are my Tobian horn speakers with my 3.5 watt Aric Audio 2A3 amp or my Alan Eaton 45 mono blocks at only 1.6 watts.

Both running tubes from the 1930s, of course.

The AE's are under $2K and the AA is I think about $8K if I recall.
I would like to know more. You're not disappearing from forums are you?

I have been waiting on Van Zyl to launch his horn. I feel he's spending a little too much time trying to make it too perfect. I believe it's a hobby,passion build for him. But he seems to know what he's doing. He understands computer modeling, and he has cnc to cut his wood. And the feedback, and praise from people who have heard his prototypes is very high.

As soon as he has one ready, I will probably get it.

That will oddly make me a little sad at not having my Pure Audio Project speakers to customize. Just last night, I was investigating ways to get something such as silicone pad to sandwich, butyl tape between and use that between the frame and baffles.
 
FWIW my perception is there are things large speakers in a well designed room can do that smaller speakers can not.
Scale is one. Shear sense of.power is another. But a horn with 3 watts can also project scale and power. And there are decent horns out there for $40k and maybe less.

A "decent" horn speaker for $40k? I thought this is the type product you are railing against in your high-end rant.
 
I have around $60k in my system. That is plenty of money to compete against most any high $ system. I don't think $10k will get you there.

So much comes down to tuning what you have.

I did sit in front of Mike Lavignes new sertup. The Gobel and Drina SET. Its $2M in system. It is the only system where I walked in and was immediately gobsmaked. My jaw hit the floor and all I could do is blubber thats amazing.

I have sat in front of a lot of Wilson, Magico type systems with Grypohon, DAG, Boulder etc. They are all extremely quiet and revealing. All sorts of control. But non make me think a well done, well tuned $50k system could not beat them for musical enjoyment.

That is where I beileve the magaines, influencers and WBF type chat places mislead the public.

Certainly cannot disregard synergy. We also have to keep in mind different strokes.
 
Inexpensive may be enjoyable until you realize there's better.
With all due respect, in many cases that's called neurosis. Everyone has a choice to drink or not drink the Kool Aid. Everyone has a choice to recognize what's important is the message, not the messanger.
 
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