Ethan Winer of RealTraps

Only addressing your bolded quote, there appear to be different interpretations about "night and day" differences here and elsewhere in the high-end audio world...

I realize that both of you are continuing long-standing discussions (arguments) started elsewhere.
 
The key word is extremes that is code for under normal operating conditions there are no differences. Let me put it more simply. There are no sonic differences among properly engineered cables.

I'm a layman; so all I can do, is chime-in with a layman's opinion. But I always found that whole "among properly engineered" rap...a bit of a cop out.

There's no difference in sound...between Solid State amps; ...as long as they're "properly engineered". ETC, ETC.

IDK; what's "properly engineered"? Is that like...a BWM and Benz, are "properly engineered"; and everything less than, is not?
 
OK , addressing the question of proper eningeering for an interconnect, its not just the interconnect, its the pre-amp or source driving circuit, the load input circuit and then the interconnect electrical characteristics. The goal is to get the signal out of the source and into the power amp or whatever without degradation of any sort. When you hear a difference, all three of these real properties come into play. The lower your source impedance and stronger its drive capability, and the higher your input impedance, the less swap outs of cables that are not designed for an extreme affect on the signal the less difference you will hear. It is science, and its proven, by those of you who hear the differences. It is not due to magic, its due to engineering. The same with cables and power cords. My friends and I found out the differences in interconnects in the late seventies, differences in coupling of speakers, but we did not play around with power cords then. That discovery came to the forfront later. We already knew that you could change the sound of any electronic circuit by changing component values etc as well as anyone who ever designed their own audio gear knows, going back to the very early 1900's.

Engineering, can be what I term as proper (that is minimal change to the sound) or it can be just changing the sound (distorting it) for preference as well. Some prefer less or least changes, some like a little bit and some a lot of change. My SET amps are certainly musical and fun, but accurate to the signal source (that is what goes in comes out with the least added distortion) is not the case although plain old stereo seems to like the enhancements that SET gives and when I want that sound, I turn to the SET to do its scientifically explained "magic".


Hearing a change is not a mark of golden ears, its just hearing a change. Do we hear the difference in mono inputs when we listen near to each of our speakers? If you don't, and it does certainly exist, usually more than 0.1db, usually more like .5 db, does it mean you are no longer a golden ear, no its means that the differences are below your audible threshold, its not magic, its science, and even though these are well engineered, they are not perfect. And neither are our ear/brain systems...far from it...far worse than devices we use to measure electronics for example. There is always a difference the question is, is it audible to us AND is it what WE think is better or not!
 
Both Romy and Ethans sites have good information, and like I said you need to wade through a lot of stuff to find it.

Wade through this:

[video]http://exposed.ethanwiner.com/index.htm[/video]

So this thread is exciting.. But the Boobs in that link are even more exciting!
 
Wow, what was this thread about anyway? Is this a cable fight? I have no dog in it, just wondering. I thought Ethan and the powers over at Real Traps were about room acoustics. Last time I checked they were, but that was a good year ago. No gear including cables can overcome room issues....at least that's what the solid science of physics tell me and I'm sticking with it.
 
^^ The issue is that Ethan really really pushes the idea that power cords don't make a difference. Even though it would appear that he is not really qualified to know.

I say that because in many ways Ethan seems to play the 'objectivist' card; you can see that in a lot of his videos. But I challenged him on the fact that power cords were both audible and measurable and it turned out that he had never made any attempt to measure the effects of a power cord and simply proclaimed them unable to make a difference.

This is not objectivist behaviour. In any field you have proponents of an idea, skeptics of an idea, and skoftics of an idea. Pertaining to power cords, Ethan is a skoftic of the idea that they can make a difference and you could talk to him till blue in the face yet he would never cause his hand to move and take a measurement. IMO this sort of self-proclaimed 'expert' that can never admit a mistake is the kind to be avoided. Apparently I am not the only one to think that and so he gets banned a lot. Skoftics and trolls have a lot in common...
 
H
^^ The issue is that Ethan really really pushes the idea that power cords don't make a difference. Even though it would appear that he is not really qualified to know.

I say that because in many ways Ethan seems to play the 'objectivist' card; you can see that in a lot of his videos. But I challenged him on the fact that power cords were both audible and measurable and it turned out that he had never made any attempt to measure the effects of a power cord and simply proclaimed them unable to make a difference.

This is not objectivist behaviour. In any field you have proponents of an idea, skeptics of an idea, and skoftics of an idea. Pertaining to power cords, Ethan is a skoftic of the idea that they can make a difference and you could talk to him till blue in the face yet he would never cause his hand to move and take a measurement. IMO this sort of self-proclaimed 'expert' that can never admit a mistake is the kind to be avoided. Apparently I am not the only one to think that and so he gets banned a lot. Skoftics and trolls have a lot in common...

Well said. I think he feels the same way about interconnect and speaker cable too.
 
Okay, I think I may have it after finding this on the International Skeptics forum. (who knew?). Ethan is an 'unbeliever' Ah

""Actually, this makes for an interesting point re: the OP. Skepticism - as
personified by the character of Scully - is presented as being dogmatic and
resistant to change. Willfully unnaccepting of anything paranormal
regardless of whatever the X-Files special effects department were
throwing around in a given episode. She isn't really a skeptic by definition,
she is an unbeliever. A skoftic. This, as we know from this very forum, is a
prefered perception of skeptics by believers. It is a convenience - for Chris
Carter writing the X-Files, and genuine believers - to portray skeptics in this
way.""
 
Only addressing your bolded quote, there appear to be different interpretations about "night and day" differences here and elsewhere in the high-end audio world...

I realize that both of you are continuing long-standing discussions (arguments) started elsewhere.

The "night and day" differences are one of the most interesting and challenging aspects of debating stereo reproduction. People often ask how can such small technicalities produce such a great difference in our perception of sound quality? IMHO there is no simple answer, although I have sometimes noticed "night and day" differences associated to small details such as cable changes. Sometimes the difference was in the negative sense - a change could ruin the "magic" of the system. Oops, another provocative concept ...
 
Someone like Ethan would deny that such a thing as the "magic" of a system exists. Maybe that optimal attention to room acoustics (using his products of course) can result in an excellent sounding system, but no more than that :lol:
 
The "night and day" differences are one of the most interesting and challenging aspects of debating stereo reproduction. People often ask how can such small technicalities produce such a great difference in our perception of sound quality? IMHO there is no simple answer, although I have sometimes noticed "night and day" differences associated to small details such as cable changes. Sometimes the difference was in the negative sense - a change could ruin the "magic" of the system. Oops, another provocative concept ...

How about the term day and night is thrown about too easily? Users should be more selective and differentiate between better and game changer? Day and night only pertains to but a few products that as HP would say are at the cutting edge. Not every product is a game changer; perhaps a game changer is that product that comes along once in a great while that is more revolutionary than evolutionary?
 
^^ Well its certainly not going to be a $600 Pioneer integrated amplifier :)

What amazed me is, well, I know he does not care for tubes, but when faced with the idea of bigger power supplies, larger heatsinks and such on a solid state amp he still was not willing to concede that such things could make a difference!

Again, easy enough thing to measure- especially if you know what you are looking for. But to not even try... that's why I regard him a skoftic.
 
I've been resisting posting to this thread as, unfortunately, I'm afraid my opinion is not particularly positive with regard to the video(s). However, I've been giving some thought to the ensuing discussion and Mr. Winer and his business.

First, I bought his book "The Audio Expert" soon after it was published and read (most of) it. I found myself in agreement with his chapters on acoustics, room measurements, room treatments, and the like; I think it's clear that he knows his stuff in this regard. (Just my layman's assessment.) However, I found myself disagreeing with so much of the other stuff he asserts, such as cables, and even actual system components not making any measurable or noticeable difference, that it made me question his credibility. We've all heard amps and other components, cables, and even source material that have clearly noticeable differences, sometimes obvious and sometimes subtle. I found myself asking, "Has this guy actually listened to this stuff? Or has he just measured? Can he not hear particularly well?" (No offense intended, just questions I found myself asking.) I hold firm to the notion that we humans have the ability to perceive sonic subtleties that current science/technology cannot detect/measure and therefore cannot explain. In other words, science simply has not caught up with our evolution. To then deny that it exists seems to me to be shortsighted. Isn't science supposed to be inquisitive?

Someplace along the way it occurred that he has a particularly well-developed business acumen. To downplay the sonic effects of easy, neat, tidy "tweaks" such as cable upgrades, component upgrades, and the like (which are difficult to measure), and to "play up" the huge sonic effects of quality room treatments, particularly large and expensive treatments (that make clearly measurable differences), would seem to help him convince the potential buyer that room treatments are a better investment than, say, cables. Part of this logic I cannot argue with: swapping in $2000 cables in to a system for subtle differences (improvements, hopefully) whilst in an awful room seems like a foolish priority. Yet we all do it. (Guilty here, too, to a certain extent.) However, spend that $2000 on room treatments and you'll hear the subtleties of your system WAY better than without. And I'd go so far as to say (and here Mr. Winer and myself will have to agree to disagree) that the subtle differences in those $2000 cables will likely sound far less subtle in a properly treated room. However, Mr. Winer seems to suggest that the room treatments are all you need - once the room is treated, your pedestrian system will sound so much better (and it probably will) that you will not need to waste any time or money chasing dragons. I think I can assume most of us here do not agree with this assertion and might go on to argue that a room outfitted with proper treatments (even his, perhaps) would be a superb environment in which to hear our music and the sonic subtleties of various system components.

As for the videos referenced above, they do seem to suggest an odd sense of humor or perhaps even a lack of professional judgement. Eh?
 
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