Electrical Grounding, AIN’T NO JOKE...

I think I'm done posting anything about what I see to be good electrical practice. Too many naysayers and I have no place encouraging anyone to play with their grounding or distribution. If you want your house grounded call a local tradesman in your zip and see if anyone has any idea what to do. Maybe your local hifi shop will share who does all their installations. Sorry to be bitter but I'm just tired of it all. I don't care to spend the time trying to prove myself. Anything I write is wrong because someone knows better.
 
Anything I write is wrong because someone knows better.

Please go back and read my last post. I am in fact very interested in knowing how you do this, since in the past the installations I've seen have obviously not been done correctly. IOW I'm not claiming to know better.
 
Atmasphere, I'm just tired. I'm sure you hate having to defend your circuit. How many days a week does someone say OTL amps are dangerous and run away tubes are going to destroy the amp and users speakers. I spent countless hours reading, talking to people and just thinking about what is the best code legal way to ground and also to distribute power. I don't need to publish my findings. I'm pretty sure what I do is working well. Could it be better. Maybe, sure. There is someone somewhere putting together studeos who might like to approach power in a manor other than how I am. Maybe their way is better and I could improve upon what I do. I have had conversations with some of these people. Other business owners and trades people think about power apply their knowledge in their own way. A friend of mine just did an install and I did not like what he did. He also told me some illegal stuff he did. He said the sound is great. I know another guy with a youtube channel advocating an unsafe installation. I offered to write a circuit diagram for him but never heard back. I am licensed, bonded and insured. It's probably best I don't give out advice. Some guy could try something or misunderstand what I say and next thing I know I have to deal with a lawsuit. People can call a local guy who has the same credentials and let them do the work with the full force of their insurance behind them.
 
Atmasphere, I'm just tired. I'm sure you hate having to defend your circuit. How many days a week does someone say OTL amps are dangerous and run away tubes are going to destroy the amp and users speakers. I spent countless hours reading, talking to people and just thinking about what is the best code legal way to ground and also to distribute power. I don't need to publish my findings. I'm pretty sure what I do is working well. Could it be better. Maybe, sure. There is someone somewhere putting together studeos who might like to approach power in a manor other than how I am. Maybe their way is better and I could improve upon what I do. I have had conversations with some of these people. Other business owners and trades people think about power apply their knowledge in their own way. A friend of mine just did an install and I did not like what he did. He also told me some illegal stuff he did. He said the sound is great. I know another guy with a youtube channel advocating an unsafe installation. I offered to write a circuit diagram for him but never heard back. I am licensed, bonded and insured. It's probably best I don't give out advice. Some guy could try something or misunderstand what I say and next thing I know I have to deal with a lawsuit. People can call a local guy who has the same credentials and let them do the work with the full force of their insurance behind them.

Sorry to hear that and I understand. Personally though I don't mind when someone trots out that old saw about OTLs- its a chance to set them straight (but at this point, having been in business over 42 years, you don't have to know anything about the technology since if it really did something like that, I'd have been out of business long ago). As a result I only hear/see that particular myth about 3-4 times a year.

This topic though is something interesting to me since I just moved and have an opportunity to do the AC power a bit better than at my old place. You are the first person I've encountered how seems to know how to do the thing with the rod correctly!
 
I just had my Ground tested, which consists of (3) 2 foot copper rods in a bed of GEM conductive material. Results Not so good: 110 ohms.

As we have bedrock about 3 feet down, I'm curious about a horizontal method to get the resistance down to 25 ohms or less. As I understand driving 8 foot rods into bedrock, besides being an ordeal, is not be a good conductive environment for a ground.

A few ideas I've come across:

-- Lay #0 bare stranded copper buried in a 2' deep trench with GEM conductive material.

-- Lay ground rods (stainless steel connected by bare copper strand) in a GEM Trench in a grid pattern

-- Lay a stainless steel plate in Gem 2' deep

Any ideas from any master electricians reading this post?:hey:
 
I hear GEM is not all it's cracked up to be. Bury 2 x 8 or 10 ft copper ground rods as deep as you can in soil that will remain as consistently moist as possible. Preferably the north side of the house in the shade. Terminate as I explaned earlier. Keep the ground rods at least 10 feet from each other and other grounds.
 
Xray your footer, find a piece of rebar, chip it out to exposed a small part and clamp your ground to it.

This would be creating an Ufer ground? This sounds like a great alternative to embedding rods in limestone bedrock. Thanks
 
Yes exactly Wilco. Technically it's called a concrete-encased electrode. The best results from any grounding electrode are from an electrode that is installed in soil that remains as consistently moist and as physically stable as possible. You want to keep your grounding conductor as short as possible. At the same time you want to keep it away from any other grounding electrodes in the Earth. If you have some in a good location that are not working well you could consider disconnecting them and installing others that are more conductive. And why are your electrodes only 2 ft long. That does not meet NEC requirements.

Before I went to the expense of x-raying and chipping my Foundation footer, I might try ditching the gem potting compound and driving some rods at an angle. You can rent a macho V, 35 or heavier -pound chipping hammer with a ground rod cup from most rental places for $50 to $70 a day. Two people using one of those tools can slam a couple rods into the Earth in minutes. Use the 5/8" copper Rod. The 3/4 " 10ft rods are a bear to drive.

You could also rent a Ditch Witch and lay a deep Trench in half an hour with one of those. I would go as deep as I possibly could. You want to be where the Earth remains moist. After dropping the rods you want to continually Tamp the dirt down as you cover the rods.

Try to avoid any locations that contain sandy soil. Sand is a horrible conductor. You want firm clay like, organic type of soil. Not too black and soft. Light brown or red that's somewhat tacky.'

If none of that is available and you can't drive a rod at least 3 feet deep on angle, then I would start considering the concrete encased electrode option. I noted earlier how you can feel a rod bite. It will shoot right through the first few feet of Earth, then it will go consistent and slow. That is the biting phase. If you never hit that and it just drops through the earth, then bottom out on a rock, you're not getting a good ground. If it drives slow for 4 or 5 ft then bottoms out, cut it off and use that conductor. It's probably pretty good. Technically it's illegal to cut it off but you're in a tight spot and you're throwing supplemental grounds in.

By the way, what is your cold water line. If it's a galvanized or copper pipe why don't you just bring a superior grounding conductor from your panel to it.

I don't know the age of your house, but a cast iron drain pipe is also an excellent grounding electrode you should look for.

A steel well casing is also an excellent grounding electrode.

You can also consider a irrigation system on a moisture meter that always keeps the moisture around your grounding electrode slightly damp.
 
Yes exactly Wilco. Technically it's called a concrete-encased electrode. The best results from any grounding electrode are from an electrode that is installed in soil that remains as consistently moist and as physically stable as possible. You want to keep your grounding conductor as short as possible. At the same time you want to keep it away from any other grounding electrodes in the Earth. If you have some in a good location that are not working well you could consider disconnecting them and installing others that are more conductive. And why are your electrodes only 2 ft long. That does not meet NEC requirements.

Before I went to the expense of x-raying and chipping my Foundation footer, I might try ditching the gem potting compound and driving some rods at an angle. You can rent a macho V, 35 or heavier -pound chipping hammer with a ground rod cup from most rental places for $50 to $70 a day. Two people using one of those tools can slam a couple rods into the Earth in minutes. Use the 5/8" copper Rod. The 3/4 " 10ft rods are a bear to drive.

You could also rent a Ditch Witch and lay a deep Trench in half an hour with one of those. I would go as deep as I possibly could. You want to be where the Earth remains moist. After dropping the rods you want to continually Tamp the dirt down as you cover the rods.

Try to avoid any locations that contain sandy soil. Sand is a horrible conductor. You want firm clay like, organic type of soil. Not too black and soft. Light brown or red that's somewhat tacky.'

If none of that is available and you can't drive a rod at least 3 feet deep on angle, then I would start considering the concrete encased electrode option. I noted earlier how you can feel a rod bite. It will shoot right through the first few feet of Earth, then it will go consistent and slow. That is the biting phase. If you never hit that and it just drops through the earth, then bottom out on a rock, you're not getting a good ground. If it drives slow for 4 or 5 ft then bottoms out, cut it off and use that conductor. It's probably pretty good. Technically it's illegal to cut it off but you're in a tight spot and you're throwing supplemental grounds in.

By the way, what is your cold water line. If it's a galvanized or copper pipe why don't you just bring a superior grounding conductor from your panel to it.

I don't know the age of your house, but a cast iron drain pipe is also an excellent grounding electrode you should look for.

A steel well casing is also an excellent grounding electrode.

You can also consider a irrigation system on a moisture meter that always keeps the moisture around your grounding electrode slightly damp.

Rex you should live where I do, ya have to go deep to get a decent ground, . All we have is sand
 
I knew guys working military bases in the Philippines. They would weld rod on top of rod on top of Rod and keep driving deeper and deeper and deeper. They would have ground rods 40 50 60 ft long. Or so the job site stories go.
 
I think we're so close to bedrock that hammering rods will be a tough one...

My thought is to first find some rebar at the footing right below the panel and connect to that.

And, second, how about increasing conduction by then connecting some rods from there and burying in a trench? Like (3) 8' rods end to end in a 30' trench? Also, I got advice to use stainless steel for rods, rather than copper?

Our soil might be pretty good-- a sticky mix of moist clay and organic and I think we can make a trench 2' deep. And you advise not using GEM in the trench?

Thanks much!
 
I just don't know much about GEM. I have spoke with other audio Guru type people. One guy put plates, raw 4/0 copper. GEM, ground rods Etc. In the end he said the plain old copper ground rod was as good if not better than all the others..

What I do know is the code based upon scientific reasoning does not want one set of grounds near another set of grounds. You want them to be at least 10 feet apart if not more.

I believe the two main reasons for grounding to Earth is one you're taking a lightning strike away from your electrical system and putting it to Earth. Second I believe is floating systems sometimes have issues with stabilizing the voltage. I'm not an engineer so I'm not as technically Savvy to know all the reasons why. I just know they say keep them apart and well out of each other's plane of influence.

I personally, with no real technical reasoning behind it think stringing 3 rods together is a little Overkill. I don't even know that it wouldn't have a negative effect. That sounds like talk from somebody who doesn't know but's just getting all excited about more the better.
 
Well, that article is a little discouraging as it seems to be saying that 8 to 10 feet deep isn’t really adequate. I just quickly skimmed it. Maybe I got it wrong
 
Instead of linking two or three rods together, How about using one long stainless steel rod buried in as deep a trench as I can dig?
 
Interesting link. Way Beyond anything I'm going to be able to do. Driving a ground rod deeper than 10 feet is pretty tough, if it all possible dependent on the conditions. I can't imagine 15 to 60 feet.

About four or five months ago I was on a job where the general did not purchase his ufer ground inspection. He had turned out a piece of rebar from the footer of his foundation. The inspector brought his testing device to the job site. That concrete encased electrode (ufer) test it out at 3.5 ohms.
 
Interesting link. Way Beyond anything I'm going to be able to do. Driving a ground rod deeper than 10 feet is pretty tough, if it all possible dependent on the conditions. I can't imagine 15 to 60 feet.

About four or five months ago I was on a job where the general did not purchase his ufer ground inspection. He had turned out a piece of rebar from the footer of his foundation. The inspector brought his testing device to the job site. That concrete encased electrode (ufer) test it out at 3.5 ohms.

That makes me think I should continue chipping away to find the rebar in my footing and test it. I’m guessing theConductance would depend at least partially on how well tied together the rebar is in the foundation?
 
Back
Top