Educate me please re: DSD files & DACs that'll play them.

Mike said:
Yes - especially those with streamers like a Linn. Is there any way for JRiver to do the conversion and save it into a separate folder?
Click to expand...

YES on the permanent conversion (you still have the DSD files also).. I simply had JRMC do a conversion to PCM. worked great.
 
Here are my links to a few things:
DSD database
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0

A sneak peek at my latest eval-review-to-follow DAC (a first, a commercial one-box native DSD multichannel DAC that goes to DSD256 and 32/384 in 8 channels)
Sneak peek: First consumer one-box multichannel DSD/PCM DAC (and does 12.288Mhz)

A quick take on my earlier stacked Mytek three DAC setup (6 channels of DSD via 3 DSD DACs!!)
First multi-channel DSD playback solution with Mytek and J RIver!

Another try at linking to MR Wicked's sacd_extract.exe for Windows (part of my step by step process on page 1;Mike I think you have a space in the first two forward slashes )
http://code.google.com/p/sacd-ripper/downloads/detail?name=sacd_extract_0.3.7_WIN32.zip&can=2&q=
 
After reading all this, I am happy not to have an SACD collection. But I see great titles appearing in SACD format, hence my original post. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the thread, you've helped educate me quite a bit.

So, for those of you "in the know", can you hear much difference between a high res PCM file vs. DSD playback (assuming you were using the same DAC to play the files)? Do DSD capable DACs have a separate D-A chip for one file vs. the other? Or, is it something where a firmware upgrade will make an improvement vs. hardware improvements?

Please forgive my ignorance... I'm mostly a vinyl guy but I do also greatly enjoy hi-res files through my ARC DAC8. (which doesn't do DSD)
 
Bobvin said:
After reading all this, I am happy not to have an SACD collection. But I see great titles appearing in SACD format, hence my original post. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the thread, you've helped educate me quite a bit.

So, for those of you "in the know", can you hear much difference between a high res PCM file vs. DSD playback (assuming you were using the same DAC to play the files)? Do DSD capable DACs have a separate D-A chip for one file vs. the other? Or, is it something where a firmware upgrade will make an improvement vs. hardware improvements?

Please forgive my ignorance... I'm mostly a vinyl guy but I do also greatly enjoy hi-res files through my ARC DAC8. (which doesn't do DSD)
Click to expand...

DSD files - especially music recorded direct to DSD like: http://bluecoastrecords.com/
To me, DSD has a greater depth to it and an overall smoothness and more analog sound than red book rips or even high res PCM files. As to a DSD file compared to the same file converted to PCM? Well....I need to do more testing and especially with different conversion options (Korg Audiogate, JRiver, etc.)

But if you want to do pure, native DSD - then you will need a compatible DSD DAC. I've been pleased with my Marantz NA11S1 and John Atkinson (Stereophile) will be reviewing it for the September issue. The DCS Paganini is one I have my eye on as well.

That being said - there are a lot of great DSD DACS out there. A real favorite among our Tampa audiophile society members is the Meitner MA-1. I heard it this weekend and was very impressed.

The Mytek is a great lower budget DSD DAC. The Auralic DAC is another. Lots!
 
NorthStar said:
Ted, the newer Oppo players (103 & 105); any advantage from them with hi res DSD audio files?
Click to expand...

The advantages are that they will play native DSD (DSF/DFF) files in both stereo and multichannel, and that they are a one box solution for this and home theater (bluray, dvd, etc). However, you can do that via disc too, so I wouldn't spend my time ripping just to get them onto a USB stick. The sonic differences are slightly more than minor in this device (IMHO).

The disadvantages of the Oppos is that, with DSD, you can't browse the music like you would via computer audio. The DSD files only are accessed locally via a USB stick or a network connected share (like a NAS). The Oppo GUI is basically non-existent. Also, even as a traditional USB DAC I don't find them to be great DACs (but then again they are $700 and $1k I think, and other home theater features that are VERY good).
 
Bobvin said:
After reading all this, I am happy not to have an SACD collection. But I see great titles appearing in SACD format, hence my original post. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the thread, you've helped educate me quite a bit.

So, for those of you "in the know", can you hear much difference between a high res PCM file vs. DSD playback (assuming you were using the same DAC to play the files)? Do DSD capable DACs have a separate D-A chip for one file vs. the other? Or, is it something where a firmware upgrade will make an improvement vs. hardware improvements?

Please forgive my ignorance... I'm mostly a vinyl guy but I do also greatly enjoy hi-res files through my ARC DAC8. (which doesn't do DSD)
Click to expand...

These are very legitimate questions. And the DAC market is quite confusing. There are DACs that are 1 bit DSD DACs that resample all PCM internally to high sample rate DSD128+ (Meitner, EMM, Playbck Designs). It could be argued that these DACS excel in DSD but might be theoretically compromised in PCM (which is still the majority of music we all own, even me with 1200 SACDs ripped to DSF :) ). Conversely, there are Sigma Delta DACs that "naturally" play PCM very well, and have had DSD capability added on in the past 24 months (due to the fact that their chips can do DSD). Are these DACs compromising DSD in that they were not designed with that in mind? Other DACS are using ladders or rings or floating point gate arrays instead of traditional chipsets..do they do one better than the other?

My short answer to this, with several low to upper-medium priced DACs inhouse ($1k to $8k), is yes, there are "horses for courses" and each DAC design seems to excel in a certain range. This is somewhat nit picking, as this hobby is want to do (i.e a music lover would be happy with most of these DACs, and audiophile may well prefer the warmth or detail of one vs the other). Heck, I find DACs that even have a sweetspot within the sample rates of PCM (i.e this DAC sounds great at 24/192 but its' redbook/cd-quality playback is average).

I am sure that as we move up the investment ladder to those DAC over $10k we find the capabilities much more balanced. However, that is not to say that some uber expensive DACS are priced that way due to brand value. And it is becoming more and more difficult to justify high priced digital equipment when the market is changing so fast. Very high end manufacturers like Chord and B.M.C. have DSD-capable DACs under $1800 that not only challenge 3x price points, but challenge to cannibalize their own mega-priced gear.
 
ted_b said:
The advantages are that they will play native DSD (DSF/DFF) files in both stereo and multichannel, and that they are a one box solution for this and home theater (bluray, dvd, etc). However, you can do that via disc too, so I wouldn't spend my time ripping just to get them onto a USB stick. The sonic differences are slightly more than minor in this device (IMHO).

The disadvantages of the Oppos is that, with DSD, you can't browse the music like you would via computer audio. The DSD files only are accessed locally via a USB stick or a network connected share (like a NAS). The Oppo GUI is basically non-existent. Also, even as a traditional USB DAC I don't find them to be great DACs (but then again they are $700 and $1k I think, and other home theater features that are VERY good).
Click to expand...

Thanks Ted!

* Oppo 103 = $499
** Oppo 105 = $1,199 ($999 refurbished; directly from Oppo).
--> The 103 is not a DAC, but the 105 is a DAC; and an asynchronous USB DAC at that too! ...Plus it has digital Optical and Coaxial and dual HDMI inputs! And inside are TWO very hi res ESS Sabre32 8-channel audio DACs.

- The 105 is also a headphone amp/preamp, a preamp, and all the rest (acts as the mother load of all sources; except a turntable).
 
Sorry, my bad about the 103. I knew that but was hurrying.

Be careful of assuming that just because it's aysnch USB or just because a certain chipset (especially SABRE) is included that it's a great DAC. The SABRE chips can be quite overtly detailed and have a leading edge that needs a great deal of quality parts in the analog stage and power supply to settle it in. Just saying. :)
 
ted_b said:
Sorry, my bad about the 103. I knew that but was hurrying.

Be careful of assuming that just because it's aysnch USB or just because a certain chipset (especially SABRE) is included that it's a great DAC. The SABRE chips can be quite overtly detailed and have a leading edge that needs a great deal of quality parts in the analog stage and power supply to settle it in. Just saying. :)
Click to expand...

I assume nothing; just enumerating the straight facts Ted sir. :)
 
If you are talking about a PS3, there is a supposedly working copy of a Firmware rollback patch starting to creep out now. Reports say it is to work on some newer PS3s, too.
 
Ted,

Thank you so much for all you've done on SACD ripping. I seriously owe you a beer or two for all the work you've done on this project. If you're ever in the DC area feel free to take me up on the offer -- I'm serious.

I followed your guide over on CA a couple of years ago and just recently (8 months ago) on a secondary, backup system. From my recent experience, it's a pain to find compatible systems out there. And the downgrade thing is a major problem. I had many sellers try and tell me that they could do the downgrade just by putting the ps3 into recovery mode and reloading the earlier firmware -- very sketchy. These same sellers advertise ps3's (CECH-A's) with pre 3.55 firmware on Ebay -- so be very careful. I've worked with one particular seller on ebay and he's managed to get me the models as advertised so there are some reputable sellers out there.

About the sacd ripper: early versions will actually dump the dsf/dst files, but I found they just never came out right (sometimes corrupt), and even further it ended up putting a lot of stress on the drive as dumping the files as opposed to the iso took 3 times longer.

A Couple of tips I've found along the way:
1. The latest version of Tag&Rename (3.7) will actually tag and insert image/art to DSF files. Previous versions didn't. I love this program -- it makes tagging music far more efficient.
2. JRiver -- I've tried (in vain) to get them to change this but, if you use auto import and have your ISO's stored in the same folder as your DSF's it will import both when the "DSD Audio (dff,dsf,sacd)" check box is selected. There's a separate check box for ISO's and even if this is unchecked it still imports the SACD ISO as I guess they consider an SACD ISO something different than any other kind of ISO. This can suck and mess up your library since you can't change the tags within the ISO. Here's a link to the post I made on the JR forum: MC 18 - Auto Import - Please Separate DSD Audio Files From ISO Files . Hopefully they'll fix it in future versions, but I'm not holding my breath.

Bryan


ted_b said:
Guys, some misinformation earlier in this thread. Let me clarify:
* when you use an SACD-capable PS3 (there are only four models, and eadh is older than 2007) it needs to be at firmware/software level 3.55 or belwo. Simple software downrev hacks (from systems higher than 3.55) are not available. You would need to spend a $100 and have a PS3 repair shop do a hardware downgrade. The problem is that there are not a lot of these eligible PS3s and mostr Ebay sellers have no clue what system software elevl they are at, or lie about it.
* the ripper project (all necessary pieces in my links) then does not produce DSF or DFF fiels, it produces an ISO image of the SACD disc. THEN, one would want to extract DSF (there are two DSD formats, DSF and DFF. The only difference is that DSF can do tags and album art, so I use it 100% of the time. No downside). My little step by step primer I included in my email to Mike (which he is in the midst of cleaning up) then allows you to take multiple ISOs and extract them to DSF folders (folder full of individual tracks) in batch. Keep the ISOs for archiving, or for when you want to extract multichannel (assuming the disc has multichannel) content.
Click to expand...
 
Yes E, I've got two PS3s one from Dec' 2006, that plays SACDs-- and how I got into HiFi and SACDs and the slim one because I was sooooo OCD that I wanted to Bitstream DTS-HD Master to my Receiver and see the icon light up on the display (the other one it's 7.1 LPCM and the light doesn't come on ;) )

Would love to roll back one so I could archive all my SACDs!
 
Mike -- I like the Paganini, but the one drawback is that you have to get the upsampler if you want USB -- the DAC doesn't have a USB input. This drives up the cost of from $18K to $28.5K. Also, how does the Marantz compare with your EMM Labs DAC (you still have it right?)?

Bryan

Mike said:
DSD files - especially music recorded direct to DSD like: Home | Blue Coast Records
To me, DSD has a greater depth to it and an overall smoothness and more analog sound than red book rips or even high res PCM files. As to a DSD file compared to the same file converted to PCM? Well....I need to do more testing and especially with different conversion options (Korg Audiogate, JRiver, etc.)

But if you want to do pure, native DSD - then you will need a compatible DSD DAC. I've been pleased with my Marantz NA11S1 and John Atkinson (Stereophile) will be reviewing it for the September issue. The DCS Paganini is one I have my eye on as well.

That being said - there are a lot of great DSD DACS out there. A real favorite among our Tampa audiophile society members is the Meitner MA-1. I heard it this weekend and was very impressed.

The Mytek is a great lower budget DSD DAC. The Auralic DAC is another. Lots!
Click to expand...
 
radioactive said:
Mike -- I like the Paganini, but the one drawback is that you have to get the upsampler if you want USB -- the DAC doesn't have a USB input. This drives up the cost of from $18K to $28.5K. Also, how does the Marantz compare with your EMM Labs DAC (you still have it right?)?

Bryan
Click to expand...

Bryan - I was fortunate enough to participate in three separate "big DAC shootouts" this summer with the fine folks from the Suncoast Audiophile Society. We tested (blindly) a variety of DAC's, including the Marantz NA11S1, DCS Debussy, Bel Canto, Meitner MA-1 and many others. Each and every time, the Meitner MA-1 came out on top. Three weeks ago, I sold the Marantz NA11S1 (which routinely finished in second by the way) for the Meitner MA-1. Compared to the DAC2X, I find the MA-1 a more smoother operator, while not losing any of the finer detail. What bothered me about the DAC2X, was that it was over-the-top with detail, to the point of being edgy and annoying. I had the DAC2X for 9 months (an eternity for me!), but with the Strads, Aida's, etc, always found it a bit too much in the uber detail department. The Meitner MA-1 is the right balance.

I'm sure the MSB DAC VI and others are better, but for now, the Meitner MA-1 is a sweet sounding unit. Smooth, with detail, never crossing over into the edgy field.

That being said, I am eyeing a Linn Klimax DS and hope to have a demo in my system in the next few weeks. Not sure I can give up DSD though now that it is gaining steam with Sony's backing. Unless the Linn Klimax DS is vastly superior (when comparing the PCM 24/192 version to a DSD file for example), then the MA-1 will stay.

Cost is also a big issue. The MA-1 is a killer good piece at $7000, while the Linn Klimax DS retails for north of $20,000. That's MSB VI territory (unless a deal can be had). All three are excellent performers....it all comes down to the importance of DSD, value, etc.
 
Mike, am getting a Meitner in next week so hopefully I will still have the MSB AnalogDac too for a jolly good comparo...
 
sharkmouth said:
Mike, am getting a Meitner in next week so hopefully I will still have the MSB AnalogDac too for a jolly good comparo...
Click to expand...

Kev - I'm very interested in your findings. Will you be comparing redbook and DSD and some high res PCM?

Mike
 
Nope, just the same songs that sound good to the ear & are mastered well. I couldn't give a flying f*ck about dsd or pcm, I'm in it for the sound. Don't want to over think things too much.;)
 
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