DSD versus PCM - Is DSD really better or is it a 'myth'
- Thread starter BlueFox
- Start date
Germanboxers
New member
Or...you could borrow one of Mose Allison's many relevant phrases for spousal arguments: "Your mind is on vacation and your mouth is working overtime" or "if silence was criminal you'd live a life of crime".
I've used both...and was generally concerned that my eyes would be scratched out. I don't do that anymore. :disbelief::disbelief:
Randy Myers
Well-known member
+1 and the recording done right.
Dam nice wheels Mike.... it makes my Benz sports sedan look like a Big Wheels...
Since we are now a "wildcard" thread, and talking cars, here is a an engine pic of my 700 hp BMW E34 540i:
Audioseduction
Active member
Since we are now a "wildcard" thread, and talking cars, here is a an engine pic of my 700 hp BMW E34 540i:
Very nice! Love the red. What supercharger is that?
Audioseduction
Active member
Since we are now a "wildcard" thread, and talking cars, here is a an engine pic of my 700 hp BMW E34 540i:
Very nice! Love the red. What supercharger is that?
DSD vs PCM. :dunno: DSD up-sampled seems to sound better, but it is ridiculously CPU intensive. I think there will be more digital format wars to come. I have no vested investment in any file based digital audio & I am not about shop for it anytime soon. The MQA equation will not help unless it develops enough momentum to bring about format standardisation. File and stream based software should include a verifiable key exchanging process with check-summing.
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Dragon_vibe
New member
I prefer DSD over PCM......DSD sound more closer to Analog but very good recorded PCM played on good dac is just as good.
surfing_dude
New member
Few years ago I bought the Patricia Barber- Modern cool album on a blu-ray audio format, ripped its associated 192/24 bit files, played it on the Lumin X-1 and thought it's the best sounding recording ever!
Then, few weeks ago, I discovered the native-dsd 512 version, and my jaw dropped to the floor- played once again on the same Lumin X-1. So much better! Analog like sound. No edges, wider soundstage, more micro details and overall "truer" sound.
The Lumin x-1 is such a wonderful player revealing everything through my Vivid's G3S2.
I also really recommend the new DSD 512 of her first album- out few weeks ago from native-dsd
Awesome production and sound!
Then, few weeks ago, I discovered the native-dsd 512 version, and my jaw dropped to the floor- played once again on the same Lumin X-1. So much better! Analog like sound. No edges, wider soundstage, more micro details and overall "truer" sound.
The Lumin x-1 is such a wonderful player revealing everything through my Vivid's G3S2.
I also really recommend the new DSD 512 of her first album- out few weeks ago from native-dsd
Awesome production and sound!
Randy Myers
Well-known member
As I have stated before, on my T+A DAC, DSD sounds much better. It may very well be the way that T+A handles DSD versus the signal path that it uses for PCM, however DSD is very much more analog sounding.
The Patricia Barber album you are referring to I own in several formats and the DSD512 compares and may actually sound better than the 45 RPM version that I own.
A couple of thoughts. Many of the major DAC and DAC chips use 1-bit delta-sigma modulator in one or several of their processing stages. This is in fact DSD. Therefore, many DACs use DSD within various stages before final conversation back to PCM for final digital to analog conversion by the DAC.
For many years now many record companies have been archiving their catalogs in DSD, and mostly at DSD256 so that the files are stored in Native DSD.
Done correctly, most digital sounds good, but few compare directly with their vinyl brethren. DSD and especially Native DSD (i.e. DSD256, DSD512, etc.) at their best compare very closely with the vinyl versions, at their best.
The Patricia Barber album you are referring to I own in several formats and the DSD512 compares and may actually sound better than the 45 RPM version that I own.
A couple of thoughts. Many of the major DAC and DAC chips use 1-bit delta-sigma modulator in one or several of their processing stages. This is in fact DSD. Therefore, many DACs use DSD within various stages before final conversation back to PCM for final digital to analog conversion by the DAC.
For many years now many record companies have been archiving their catalogs in DSD, and mostly at DSD256 so that the files are stored in Native DSD.
Done correctly, most digital sounds good, but few compare directly with their vinyl brethren. DSD and especially Native DSD (i.e. DSD256, DSD512, etc.) at their best compare very closely with the vinyl versions, at their best.
stereogeek
Member
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2018
- Messages
- 475
I am a huge Ayon fan, and my Ayon CD player is switchable between PCM and DSD. This is a big deal as you can A/B them back-to-back. Almost all of my cd's sound a bit better with DSD. Smoother overall, but the midrange is where DSD really shines. And if the midrange isn't right, nothing else matters.
Randy Myers
Well-known member
That is very cool that Ayon has up-sampling on CDs! I use HQPlayer and up-sample everything to DSD512/48. I also find that the better in the better out (obviously with exceptions). Therefore, I look for the highest resolution available on albums I purchase digitally. I have found that bit rate for PCM is most important. I look for 24-bit versus 16-bit that Redbooks are.
A file that is Native DSD definitely is the most analog sounding. This means DSD256 and DSD512 for me. Since everything is presented to the DAC at DSD512/48 the DAC only sees native, however files that are purchased in DSD up-sample even better in my view in my system.
I have ripped all of my CDs and SACDs to my server. They all work best from internal SSD/M.2 drives, and it is so easy to control them with Roon!
A file that is Native DSD definitely is the most analog sounding. This means DSD256 and DSD512 for me. Since everything is presented to the DAC at DSD512/48 the DAC only sees native, however files that are purchased in DSD up-sample even better in my view in my system.
I have ripped all of my CDs and SACDs to my server. They all work best from internal SSD/M.2 drives, and it is so easy to control them with Roon!
Bones13
Active member
IMO differing DAC hardware implementation will favor either PCM or DSD. Enough that people notice. In my previous Bricasti had 2 separate decoding paths, one for PCM, the other for DSD. I preferred the DSD path enough to have all my files transcoded to DSD, by Roon, before getting to the DAC.
In general, most delta/sigma chips sound different to the R2R implementations. (R2R can be on a chip, or done discretly) Both can be further influenced by the output circuitry. And, different people will prefer different flavors.
My current MSB DAC does not favor one over the other, so I have minimized any manipulation of sound by Roon, or the DAC, and just send the original files.
Being 66, and growing up with Vinyl, and FM as sources, there is still magic in the sound of vinyl to me. Whether it’s just the original recording resonating in my brain with memories, or the RIAA correction flavor, or just the comforting ritual of choosing a record, handling the sleeve, placing and cleaning the record, listening with enough engagement to lift the arm when that side ends.
My DAC comes really, really, close, paired with a tubed pre-amp. With my recent move, there was a distinct possibility that I would not have room for the vinyl. (The vinyl system is alive and well)
In general, most delta/sigma chips sound different to the R2R implementations. (R2R can be on a chip, or done discretly) Both can be further influenced by the output circuitry. And, different people will prefer different flavors.
My current MSB DAC does not favor one over the other, so I have minimized any manipulation of sound by Roon, or the DAC, and just send the original files.
Being 66, and growing up with Vinyl, and FM as sources, there is still magic in the sound of vinyl to me. Whether it’s just the original recording resonating in my brain with memories, or the RIAA correction flavor, or just the comforting ritual of choosing a record, handling the sleeve, placing and cleaning the record, listening with enough engagement to lift the arm when that side ends.
My DAC comes really, really, close, paired with a tubed pre-amp. With my recent move, there was a distinct possibility that I would not have room for the vinyl. (The vinyl system is alive and well)
JCS123
Active member
Also 66, also grew up with vinyl and FM, and may I add cassettes. It was a beautiful thing when the radio station would broadcast a local concert that I could record and play it back in my car. I also loved going to the record store early on Fridays with high hopes of getting a copy of that new release from one of my favorite bands (or the occasional album from an unknown band that I bought purely for the cover art). Then racing home, ripping it open and playing it while devouring the liner notes.
On the digital side - fast forward 45-some odd years: I now upsample everything to DSD with the LUMIN App on my LUMIN T2, and I have observed that in most cases, I prefer this sound. I just play as it is presented on the desktop NuPrime IDA-8. To be honest, I don't know what, if any, up or downsampling is going on with the NuPrime, so I assume that when I see "Hi-Res 24-bit, 192 kHz - Stereo", that is indeed a different signal than 16/44, etc. I must admit that when I'm listening to something that randomly follows what I selected, I often look at the desktop and am very surprised at the numbers that I see. This suggests to me that it is not only (likely not even primarily) the bit depth and sample rate that dictate how a recording sounds. My experience has led me to believe that recording and mastering are the primary contributors to the final sound quality.
Many people on this forum have equipment far better than mine, and I'm pretty sure that I have heard this general observation from some of the owners of mega-systems as well.
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Also 66, and I agree with what you both are saying. For me, I love Roon, and use it for meta data and listening control, but HQPlayer is a whole other ball game, or game changer if you will. I send all through Roon to HQPlayer and on to the DAC. T+A also has separate paths for PCM and DSD. DSD decoding is an in-house system by T+A and is fantastic!