DSD, The last thing we need....

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Mr. Phelan,

I am a little sympathetic to your main point however, imo a big part of the brouhaha in this thread is based on your very loose (or even kinda reckless) use of the term "DSD" versus what I will call "True DSD."

You are correct that off the shelf chipsets convert True DSD to multi-bit PCM. You are also correct that a recording made in PCM and then "converted" to "DSD" is not True DSD since it was recorded in PCM at its inception. But my question is.....so what?

We are talking about True DSD as Myles and others have defined it in previous posts (a DSD recording played back by a proprietary true 1 bit DAC --an example would be PD) and not what I will call "Contorted DSD."

This discussion is about True DSD versus PCM (be it high res or redbook) and you are just confusing the issue by pointing out that these contortions exist in the market place and then making blanket statements that the contortions represent the facts about True DSD. Start a thread on the merits of Contorted DSD versus PCM if you want to talk about this, but to enter a thread and make definitive claims about a format based on the fact that the market has adopted contortions as it develops seems to really be missing the point.

A better approach may have been to simply state that the contortions exist and then make the relevant point that you believe PCM (even in Redbook) has approached the level of True DSD due to the accomplishments of folks at MSB, Trinity, etc.; a view that I and many audiophiles happen to subscribe too.
 
This thread was about "DSD, the last thing we need". The OP linked us to someone who (knows) that DSD is a multi-bit recording system. As the thread progressed, it went into the sound of DSD (SACD).

And I went in from there -

Later - I cited engineers reporting on *coding systems*- not their "creaming" of a new format (like Myles A. said.)

No - it's the others here who said things irrelevant. Everything I said was right in line....
 
Mike said:
Norman - you've got to hear the Lumin S1 do DSD128 (and pretty much everything else).....wow!

Agree re: DStream.
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One fine day when I am in Florida or Long Island, you bet I will. I am sure I will enjoy it too.

YOU gotta hear the Big7. Trust me. The best Lampi ever!
 
jphelan said:
DSD is typically an 8-bit format (on recording, sometimes 16). Because of this, it decimates and oversamples (on recording, just like PCM).

But in order to hear "true" DSD, you have to eschew the DAC-chip because they all transcode to PCM. Until we have many more players than do this - almost all people who play SACDs are hearing PCM.

"mep" was dead-wrong on DSD - it is not 1 bit. He is the troll - ones who make unsubstantiated claims.

Still can't figure out why Myles pointed to Koch - this is about the DSD system - not the resume of audio designers.

The PFO review stated clearly that its Red Book performance was *much* better than anything he heard before. PS Audio wasn't going for DSD - they know better. So does Charlie Hansen - who never liked DSD/SACD.

Look at The Absolute Sound from June 2001. Here, REG had a report on the new audio formats. *He* didn't take to DSD, in this report. I could go on -

You guys are in the wrong lane -

The reviews of CD are clear - PS Audio for one, but EMM on AudioStream last year. The reviewer said that digital "of any resolution" was equally compelling. Including CD.

Superior Audio did EMM (last year) and Jules Coleman said it was as good as any source he's heard - at "anything near its price". And he has good experience with LP and even SACD. His review, BTW, was based on CD recordings. Read it.....
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I have a Lampi DSD Dac. It has no CHIp and it plays DSD 1-bit natively via low pass filtration. It is just an elaborate filter box. You have to hear one to understand. Go read Bruce Browns review at Stereomojo.com or Scot's updated review at parttimeaudiophile.com When you hear one, you will finally understand.

Let me be clear...I spent over 7 hours comparing 4 Dacs with 3 HP amps and 4 quality H-phones 2 weeks ago at the house of AlRainbow in Queens. They were the MSB Platinum stack with all options including the Galaxy 2 clock upgrade, a Lampi Big7 with volume control and DSD module, using the stock ($500 retail) EML 45 triode DHT tubes, the DirectStream and the Chord Hugo. Both the Hugo and the DStream sucked via DSD and were better with PCM. Both the Lampi and MSB were quantum leaps above the DS and Hugo in PCM and totally blew aways the other 2 in DSD, it was almost incredible. The differences wer not subtel and anyone there would have been able to tell. The Lampi was smoother than the MSB, which was a bit more PCM sounding (harder leading edge/treble, etc). Both Lampi and the $35K MSB stack were superb though. The Lampi was just more natural and at ease and with ZERO listening fatigue, but still with oodles of detail. I am now pining away for a big7.

MSB though much pricier played PCM almost as well as DSD. i am a DSD junky as it just sounds better to me, all things being equal, but the Lampi and MSB has so cut the gap from PCM to DSD, that I am essentially agnostic now.

http://www.stereomojo.com/Lampizator DSD DAC Review/LampizatorDSDDACReview.htm
 
jphelan said:
Wrong - I'll believe recording engineers over an *audio reviewer* any day of the week.....
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Pure DSD is 1-bit and is a subset of PDM. 8 bit DSD is just another iteration of Pulse density modulation. PCM is coded, DSD is Not. All you need is a quality LPF and you have gone clear.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Mr. Phelan,

I am a little sympathetic to your main point however, imo a big part of the brouhaha in this thread is based on your very loose (or even kinda reckless) use of the term "DSD" versus what I will call "True DSD."

You are correct that off the shelf chipsets convert True DSD to multi-bit PCM. You are also correct that a recording made in PCM and then "converted" to "DSD" is not True DSD since it was recorded in PCM at its inception. But my question is.....so what?

We are talking about True DSD as Myles and others have defined it in previous posts (a DSD recording played back by a proprietary true 1 bit DAC --an example would be PD) and not what I will call "Contorted DSD."

This discussion is about True DSD versus PCM (be it high res or redbook) and you are just confusing the issue by pointing out that these contortions exist in the market place and then making blanket statements that the contortions represent the facts about True DSD. Start a thread on the merits of Contorted DSD versus PCM if you want to talk about this, but to enter a thread and make definitive claims about a format based on the fact that the market has adopted contortions as it develops seems to really be missing the point.

A better approach may have been to simply state that the contortions exist and then make the relevant point that you believe PCM (even in Redbook) has approached the level of True DSD due to the accomplishments of folks at MSB, Trinity, etc.; a view that I and many audiophiles happen to subscribe too.
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FlexA...The Platinum stack still plays DSD better than PCM, even if the gap now is small. Lampi Big7 DSD is even a shade better.
 
wisnon said:
FlexA...The Platinum stack still plays DSD better than PCM, even if the gap now is small. Lampi Big7 DSD is even a shade better.
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To me the Diamond with Galaxy is indistinguishable between the two formats. Recordings can clearly make a much bigger difference IMO. Vince at MSB has told me audiophiles regularly approach him at shows to ask when the track playing came out on DSD since they didn't know it had. He then proceeds to show them they are listening to red label.

In any case, I wonder if your observations are more driven by personal preference and the impact of the recording as opposed to format superiority.
 
For DSD, I was referring to the actual recorders they use - not the textbook definition.

In practice, DSD is never 1-bit....
 
FlexibleAudio said:
To me the Diamond with Galaxy is indistinguishable between the two formats. Recordings can clearly make a much bigger difference IMO. Vince at MSB has told me audiophiles regularly approach him at shows to ask when the track playing came out on DSD since they didn't know it had. He then proceeds to show them they are listening to red label.

In any case, I wonder if your observations are more driven by personal preference and the impact of the recording as opposed to format superiority.
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Yes it is very close, but DSD128 is just so, so, so........please complete the sentence for me. LoL

Plus those big EML 45 DHT LOVE DSD.
 
jphelan said:
For DSD, I was referring to the actual recorders they use - not the textbook definition.

In practice, DSD is never 1-bit....
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Yes it can be! When you use LPF and no additional processing... Have a listen first and THEN we can talk.
 
jphelan said:
For DSD, I was referring to the actual recorders they use - not the textbook definition.

In practice, DSD is never 1-bit....
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Strange the org MR-1000 is a 1 bit DSD recorder even the MR1 which a pocket sized recorder does 1 bit. as does the Korg MR-2000 and Tascam offers 1 bit DSD recorders not to mention Grimm.

Their on-site specifications are easy to read... and note 1-bit DSD
 
jphelan said:
For DSD, I was referring to the actual recorders they use - not the textbook definition.

In practice, DSD is never 1-bit....
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Your Honor may I approach the Bench?

I believe the accused (Mr. Phelan) is attempting to avoid conviction by getting off on a technicality; namely the use of the qualifier "in practice." Technically he is correct but as I said in my Post 143, so what. The fact that a large portion of the market uses a Contorted DSD does not negate the fact that True DSD exists and it is the topic of this thread.
 
I think it was my fourth grade nun (Sister Tiger Claire) who told me to never argue with an unreasonable person because you can't win.
 
The topic of this thread was "the last thing we need" - was it not ?

Yes - DSD *can* be 1-bit - but never is, as far as record labels go.

How can I be "convicted" when I'm not wrong ?
 
jphelan said:
The topic of this thread was "the last thing we need" - was it not ?

Yes - DSD *can* be 1-bit - but never is, as far as record labels go. Pro recordings (DSD) are typically 8-bit.

How can I be "convicted" when I'm not wrong ?
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Sister Tiger Claire is going to be very upset with me but.......your honor, the defendant is at it again. Note his use of the word "typically" above. No one is disputing the existence of all sorts of DSD contortions. So what? The discussion is about whether True DSD should exist, NOT the fact that in reality contortions are prevalent.
 
Apparently you haven't read this thread - because at least 2 people swore that DSD is 1-bit.

These people also denounced CD, on sound. No audiophiles would do that - except the ones on Audioshark.....
 
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