DSD, The last thing we need....

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rbbert said:
The Mytek doesn't sound that good, IMO. It is a great DAC for the price, but I was glad it came with a 30-day trial period.
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How much PCM did you listen to vice DSD with the Mytek? Look, I'm not trying to say that the Mytek competes with DACs many times it price on PCM or DSD. What I am telling you is that it sounds real damn good with DSD. If I only listened to PCM, I probably would have sent the Mytek back within the fist 30 days too. My Creative Labs stand alone DAC that cost around $200 when new sounds as good as the Mytek does playing back PCM. The Mytek has even more wowie-zowie bass over PCM than the Creative Labs DAC does, but I already find PCM bass more than a little unnatural so having more of that type of bass didn't excite me.
 
rbbert said:
There a quite a few DAC's which use that chip (a typical delta-sigma design); I don't doubt that your Bel Canto sounds good, but I doubt you can ascribe its performance to the DAC chip.
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It is part of the equation for a great sounding system. No one component does it alone.
 
iosiP said:
Yes DSD sounds more like analog, in that it has less punch and dynamic than PCM.
A violin sonata in DSD will sound better (mellower and less fatiguing) than the same in PCM, but when you go to Joe Satriani - not to mention Ted Sirota or Queensryche - DSD just spells "It's sleepy time down South" :P
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My experience is the complete opposite. Mind you, I was at the time listening to a PBD MPD-5 which converts all to DSD. I was at the darTZeel demo room listening to a CD on his reference system , ie Evol Acoustics MM3 ($75K) and the PBD, powered by Dart Preamp and Dart $150K mono blocs. Just for comparison, Herve put on the same album in vinyl via his EMS TT and the LP had waaaaay more dynamics.
 
Mike said:
Guys - I've been on the DAC Merry go round a long time. I've owned north of 20 DAC's and in many cases - the format/resolution was often a driving factor in "upgrading".

I don't want to spoil my review - but the Lumin S1 handles everything - including DSDx2 (and yes, I have downloaded some tracks recorded in DSDx2 and its phenomenal) - and it sounds incredible. PCM - especially Redbook - sounds amazing. Ditto for the A1.

I would personally not own the Lampi. I see it one step removed from DIY. I know Norman loves it - but Lampi's QC issues are well known.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I have had Lampi Dacs for 3 years and never had an issue. As they are hand built all possible issues can be corrected. The last serial number I saw was about 700, so tons have been made and many happy campers out there. I just got an email from an audio software maker who says that he has 25 customers usiing a Lmapi and all seem very happy. He now wants to hear one for himself and as he lives about 3 hours away, we may manage to link up.

If you want that sound, you have to take the plunge.

The Lampi Big7 is creating a storm of demand among those in the know. The EML 45 Directly heated Triodes apparently sound supreme and the Dac is a monstor on BOTH PCM and DSD.

The real secret sauce of Lampi DSD is that its a separate Dac in the box to PCM. The 2 cant coexist properly on the same circuit.

Bruce Brown: Lampizator DSD DAC Review

Scott: LampizatOr DSD DAC: First Listen (Updated & Revisited) | Confessions of a Part-Time Audiophile
 
wisnon said:
My experience is the complete opposite. Mind you, I was at the time listening to a PBD MPD-5 which converst all to DSD. I was at the darTZeel demo room listeing to a CD on his reference system , ie Evol Acoustics MM3 ($75K) and the PBD, powered by Dart Preamp and Dart $150K mono blocs. Just for comparison, Herve put on the same album in vinyl via his EMS TT and the LP had waaaaay more dynamics.
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This is my experience too and I don't have that level of gear that Herve does. I have a Technics SP-10 MKII table with an SME 312s arm and a Dynavector XV-1s cartridge which normally plays through my Krell KPE Reference phono preamp. That goes into my ARC REF 5SE and then into my ARC REF 75. I have had a pair of Nola KO speakers on order since March, but alas, they are not here yet. In the meantime, I have a pair of the Wilson Benesch ART monitors and dedicated stands and a pair of Def Tech Ref subs that have 14" woofers powered by 1800 watt amps. I'm currently reviewing the Manley Chinook phono preamp so that is in my system now instead of my Krell.
 
rbbert said:
Almost no currently produced DAC's are "optimized for PCM"; virtually all (and certainly all "affordable" ones) are based on delta-sigma chips, which means that PCM needs to be converted while DSD doesn't (although it may be upsampled). Both Charles Ayre and PS Audio allude to this in previously linked interviews or white papers. This might be at least part of the reason that DSD "sounds better" to many listeners.

If you want a DAC that is "optimized" for both PCM and DSD the PS Audio may be the one you want, although I would certainly want to consider the various Lampi's as well.
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AMR, Metrum Octave, CH Precision, certain GD-Audio, Phasure, etc,indeed there are many NOS R2R multibit type Dacs available out there. Many use the BB1704 chip.

I think the PS Audio compromises DSD in its attempt to boost PCM. Its not a big one, but still all the extra computation and processing is not needed. they should have done a discrete path for DSD…economics won that battle.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Thanks alexandre. Good post.

Analog will be my foundation but am trying to decide which digital train to jump on. Its a challenge to find a single DAC that plays true 1 bit and multi-bit at a high level. Seems like the choice is one or the other.
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The key is to avoid "chip-based" DACs. Every single DAC based on discrete components that I heard sounded much better than any chip-based DAC.

MSB, dCS, Metrum, Chord, TotalDAC, Playback Designs, are some of the manufacturers that don't use off-the-shelf chips. Of course, they don't all sound alike, because they all have different price points (and analog stages, and component quality, etc.).

But if you want something that'll do top notch PCM and top notch DSD, the MSB Analog DAC is a good start, and an end as well, as you can add more ports later. And to future-proof it, it's also software upgradeable.

Another very impressive unit, that was also mentioned here, are the Playback Designs MPD/MPS-5.


alexandre
 
LoL

Alex read the link to the Bruce brown review I posted above comparing Lampi DSD to PBD.

A pal of mine in NYC has a MSB platinum plus stack with the Galaxy 2 clock upgrade and 2 weeks ago he got his Lampi Big7… The Lampi appears to be beating the MSB with only 50 hours run in! And this is on PCM and it uses a chip for PCM! The DSD module is chipless and is only marginally better than the PCM in the Big 7. His opinion, not mine as I have not heard it yet. There are no absolutes in this hobby.

This same pal owns a PS Audio Direct stream, a Mytek, a Master 7 and a Chord Hugo.
 
I think everybody's right (or maybe everybody's wrong...) ;)

BTW, isn't the BB 1704 only 20/96 (even though it is spec'ed at 24/96) according to a long running expert debate at Audio Asylum a few years ago??
 
wisnon said:
LoL

Alex read the link to the Bruce brown review I posted above comparing Lampi DSD to PBD.

A pal of mine in NYC has a MSB platinum plus stack with the Galaxy 2 clock upgrade and 2 weeks ago he got his Lampi Big7… The Lampi appears to be beating the MSB with only 50 hours run in! And this is on PCM and it uses a chip for PCM! The DSD module is chipless and is only marginally better than the PCM in the Big 7. His opinion, not mine as I have not heard it yet. There are no absolutes in this hobby.

This same pal owns a PS Audio Direct stream, a Mytek, a Master 7 and a Chord Hugo.
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Do you ever get a chance to listen to music between working the forums for Lampi?
 
asiufy said:
The key is to avoid "chip-based" DACs. Every single DAC based on discrete components that I heard sounded much better than any chip-based DAC.

MSB, dCS, Metrum, Chord, TotalDAC, Playback Designs, are some of the manufacturers that don't use off-the-shelf chips. Of course, they don't all sound alike, because they all have different price points (and analog stages, and component quality, etc.).

But if you want something that'll do top notch PCM and top notch DSD, the MSB Analog DAC is a good start, and an end as well, as you can add more ports later. And to future-proof it, it's also software upgradeable.

Another very impressive unit, that was also mentioned here, are the Playback Designs MPD/MPS-5.


alexandre
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Thanks again Alex. I have heard the MSB Analog and found it very good at its price.
 
mep said:
I didn't know for sure either which is why I asked you the questions I asked. You mentioned 3 companies that make DACs as ones that make PCM sound good. MSB has DACs that sell for $74,950, at least one Trinity DAC sells for $41,900, and the latest DCS stack is over $108K. This validates the question I asked you when you wanted to know what DACs I used and after I told you, you said my comments all "made sense now." My reference DAC and the Lampi DAC I recently reviewed aren't in those ballparks with regards to cost which is what I thought you were hinting at. So while it may be clever to say you didn't realize we were talking about which format was better at a particular price, you certainly insinuated to me that was exactly what you were talking about. So my question to you remains the same, how much does a PCM DAC cost that can make PCM sound the way you know it can sound?

DACs age faster than dogs do. The rule of thumb is every year in a dog's life is equivalent to 7 years of a human life. And that is at least as fast as DACs age. A $100+k DAC stack today will be blown away by the sound quality of a $2k DAC within two years of the $100k DAC being released. Why in the world would you spend $50k to a $100k for a PCM DAC in order to make PCM sound decent? You can put very expensive lipstick on a pig and dress it in versace dresses and it will be a fancy looking pig, but your still dating a pig. I would rather date a hot chick with a pair of Levis, a T-shirt, and no makeup.


And my point in saying all of this is that a $1.600 Mytek Stereo 192 will make DSD sound incredible. If it takes at least $40k for PCM to compete with DSD, I think we have a problem.
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None of the comments or observations I made were regarding price, but rather sound quality. I was suspicious of your observations about PCM because initially your descriptions sounded to me like my recollections regarding PCM of years past. After you told me you use the Mytek I continued to wonder about your PCM comments because I (maybe naively) think of that DAC as being more of a DSD design as opposed to PCM. As I said, I have not heard your DAC but have not run across it as a SOTA PCM DAC and, therefor, was just curious on what DAC you were having such difficulty listening to PCM.

As an aside, if I have something to say I generally don't insinuate and I am certainly not clever. Since price is front and center, I think the MSB Analog for well under $10k makes PCM sound nice.
 
jap said:
Do you ever get a chance to listen to music between working the forums for Lampi?
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why yes, I was just at the demo room at CH precision hq listening to my fav tracks. Look out for an article on that. Before I did the same at Goldmund and before that darTZeel. And you? Where are your musical listening experiences detailed? I would like to read them.
 
For all who asked (and specially mep): I made the tests using an Esoteric UX-3 Pi and hybrid disks, listening alternatively to the SACD and CD layers. And yes, I did adjust the volume to get the same loudness.

Right now I'm using a Chord Indigo and a MSB Analog. I got the later to (eventually) replace the former but I just think I'm going to keep them both, albeit for different reasons.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
None of the comments or observations I made were regarding price, but rather sound quality. I was suspicious of your observations about PCM because initially your descriptions sounded to me like my recollections regarding PCM of years past. After you told me you use the Mytek I continued to wonder about your PCM comments because I (maybe naively) think of that DAC as being more of a DSD design as opposed to PCM. As I said, I have not heard your DAC but have not run across it as a SOTA PCM DAC and, therefor, was just curious on what DAC you were having such difficulty listening to PCM.

As an aside, if I have something to say I generally don't insinuate and I am certainly not clever. Since price is front and center, I think the MSB Analog for well under $10k makes PCM sound nice.
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Paul-It's all good bro. I was confident that the DACs I was using for PCM didn't meet your approval and I was just curious as to how much money you thought need to spend in order to enjoy PCM.
 
iosiP said:
For all who asked (and specially mep): I made the tests using an Esoteric UX-3 Pi and hybrid disks, listening alternatively to the SACD and CD layers. And yes, I did adjust the volume to get the same loudness.

Right now I'm using a Chord Indigo and a MSB Analog. I got the later to (eventually) replace the former but I just think I'm going to keep them both, albeit for different reasons.
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Sorry, blame the Esoteric, not the format. Same as mastering is everything for software (music), implementation is key to hardware.

alexandre
 
mep said:
Paul-It's all good bro. I was confident that the DACs I was using for PCM didn't meet your approval and I was just curious as to how much money you thought need to spend in order to enjoy PCM.
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mep, It was not that your DAC did not meet my approval; it makes you happy and that's what matters....I was just calibrating your PCM comments. Yes its all good.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
mep, It was not that your DAC did not meet my approval; it makes you happy and that's what matters....I was just calibrating your PCM comments. Yes its all good.
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It makes me happy with DSD. I haven't come across a DAC yet that makes me happy with PCM. Maybe eventually a PCM DAC will be made that everyone raves about and the price will be realistic and I will get a chance to hear the sound that some people feel PCM is capable of and claim to be pulling off now. I feel like I'm pulling off DSD at a high level for $1,600. I just don't know why it should cost multiples of that number to make PCM sound good.
 
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