DSD, The last thing we need....

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iosiP said:
Yes DSD sounds more like analog, in that it has less punch and dynamic than PCM.
A violin sonata in DSD will sound better (mellower and less fatiguing) than the same in PCM, but when you go to Joe Satriani - not to mention Ted Sirota or Queensryche - DSD just spells "It's sleepy time down South" :P
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I have no idea what analog gear you have heard/owned over the years that would lead you to that conclusion. Analog has tremendous punch when done right. As far as dynamics go, we all know that spec wise, PCM has a greater dynamic range capability vice analog. However, in real life, the irony is that we are in the midst of loudness wars where there is no real dynamic range being captured in tons of pop and rock recordings. Don't mistake loudness for dynamic range. If you want to hear music with the best dynamic range, better go for pure analog recordings done right.

So, it might be "sleepy time down South" at your house listening to DSD, but it's "I can't sit still much longer and concentrate on the music with PCM" at my house. Whenever I listen to PCM at my house, my mind starts drifting and thinking of much more pleasant things I could be doing like getting a root canal for instance. :P Seriously, I just can't listen long before I have to get up and put a record or tape on. I have been into the Beatles my entire life and I have a decent collection of both analog and digital including the limited edition USB green apple. Guess what I never listen to because I just can't take it? All of the Beatles remastered CDs (I have the mono and stereo set) and the green apple.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Ah, I understand. Sorry about the redundancy. It all makes perfect sense now. Thanks for your help.
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Does it make perfect sense now because I don't have an uber expensive DAC and don't really know what PCM can sound like? If the answer to that question is yes, how much do you have to pay in order to hear what PCM is really capable of?
 
mep said:
So, it might be "sleepy time down South" at your house listening to DSD, but it's "I can't sit still much longer and concentrate on the music with PCM" at my house. Whenever I listen to PCM at my house, my mind starts drifting and thinking of much more pleasant things I could be doing like getting a root canal for instance. :P Seriously, I just can't listen long before I have to get up and put a record or tape on. I have been into the Beatles my entire life and I have a decent collection of both analog and digital including the limited edition USB green apple. Guess what I never listen to because I just can't take it? All of the Beatles remastered CDs (I have the mono and stereo set) and the green apple.
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That’s too bad your system is not optimized for PCM playback. When it is, it's extremely enjoyable.
 
Mep,

Not sure what your point is regarding "super expensive." I believe there are DACs that play PCM better others (particularly some DAC's that are designed for DSD first and PCM second). I have never heard your Mytek, but I do know your observations about PCM are very different than mine (but do reflect my observations about PCM from a few years back).

Lots of exceptional PCM DAC's today that compete well with the DSD I have experienced.
 
Well, I've heard both (PCM and DSD) in some of the best DACs out there, MSB, dCS, etc. And I still like DSD better, for the same reasons mep exposed.

But, IMO, the differences are not due to technical things. I'm not saying DSD is *technically* better than PCM. Just that the available music that I have, when put to DSD, sounds better (more pleasant) than the same music on PCM.

Again, that is not to say that it is impossible to have a pleasant experience with PCM. I know it is.

My take is that since DSD is a niche within a niche, much more care is taken when mastering the material to DSD than when mastering for PCM (specially in the early days). The end result of all that extra care? The DSD stuff just sounds better. Just as MFSL PCM stuff sounds better than your regular PCM/Redbook disc. That little bit of extra care when mastering...

I don't agree with ioSP's post that DSD has less punch, or it's "sleepy time down South" as he put it. I'm listening to Karajan's Beethoven 7th and 8th on SACD right now, and it doesn't lack for dynamics or punch.

To close this, I think that if you like MUSIC, it's foolish to write off this or that format, on technical grounds alone. If you like music, you should be looking at the format that best preserves (and presents) that music. Sometimes it's DSD. Sometimes it's PCM. And heck, sometimes it's good ol' LPs!


cheers,
alexandre
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Mep,

Not sure what your point is regarding "super expensive." I believe there are DACs that play PCM better others (particularly some DAC's that are designed for DSD first and PCM second). I have never heard your Mytek, but I do know your observations about PCM are very different than mine (but do reflect my observations about PCM from a few years back).

Lots of exceptional PCM DAC's today that compete well with the DSD I have experienced.
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My point is that I would like to know what DACs you think show the best of what PCM can do and how much they cost.
 
Audioseduction said:
That’s too bad your system is not optimized for PCM playback. When it is, it's extremely enjoyable.
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And exactly how does one do that?

I am curious just how many have for instance compared a PCM vs DSD copy vs. the analog master tape and which is the MIRROR image? Or have a copy of the same recording done in parallel?

Note added: How many too Bruce Browns blind test on WBF of the different digital formats?
 
asiufy said:
Well, I've heard both (PCM and DSD) in some of the best DACs out there, MSB, dCS, etc. And I still like DSD better, for the same reasons mep exposed.

But, IMO, the differences are not due to technical things. I'm not saying DSD is *technically* better than PCM. Just that the available music that I have, when put to DSD, sounds better (more pleasant) than the same music on PCM.

Again, that is not to say that it is impossible to have a pleasant experience with PCM. I know it is.

My take is that since DSD is a niche within a niche, much more care is taken when mastering the material to DSD than when mastering for PCM (specially in the early days). The end result of all that extra care? The DSD stuff just sounds better. Just as MFSL PCM stuff sounds better than your regular PCM/Redbook disc. That little bit of extra care when mastering...

I don't agree with ioSP's post that DSD has less punch, or it's "sleepy time down South" as he put it. I'm listening to Karajan's Beethoven 7th and 8th on SACD right now, and it doesn't lack for dynamics or punch.

To close this, I think that if you like MUSIC, it's foolish to write off this or that format, on technical grounds alone. If you like music, you should be looking at the format that best preserves (and presents) that music. Sometimes it's DSD. Sometimes it's PCM. And heck, sometimes it's good ol' LPs!


cheers,
alexandre
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Thanks alexandre. Good post.

Analog will be my foundation but am trying to decide which digital train to jump on. Its a challenge to find a single DAC that plays true 1 bit and multi-bit at a high level. Seems like the choice is one or the other.
 
Almost no currently produced DAC's are "optimized for PCM"; virtually all (and certainly all "affordable" ones) are based on delta-sigma chips, which means that PCM needs to be converted while DSD doesn't (although it may be upsampled). Both Charles Ayre and PS Audio allude to this in previously linked interviews or white papers. This might be at least part of the reason that DSD "sounds better" to many listeners.

If you want a DAC that is "optimized" for both PCM and DSD the PS Audio may be the one you want, although I would certainly want to consider the various Lampi's as well.
 
mep said:
My point is that I would like to know what DACs you think show the best of what PCM can do and how much they cost.
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I already mention the PCM DACs I consider good. Prices are on line. My point was I didn't realize we were talking about which format was better at a particular price.
 
I don't understand how Gordon Rankin says an ESS or Wolfson chip (for example), which are delta-sigma chips (typically 5-bit PWM), are better with PCM, which needs to be converted, vs. 1-bit DSD (PWM) which only needs to be "upsampled" (poor terminology but that is what PS Audio uses)?

More discussion (although perhaps not clarification)

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-thorsten-loesch-amrifi
 
rbbert said:
I don't understand how Gordon Rankin says an ESS or Wolfson chip (for example), which are delta-sigma chips (typically 5-bit PWM), are better with PCM, which needs to be converted, vs. 1-bit DSD (PWM) which only needs to be "upsampled" (poor terminology but that is what PS Audio uses)?
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Add Soulution (new 560) and the guys at Berkeley (new Reference DAC) to your list also from what I understand. And these are new 2014 SOTA products. It had me scratching my head after your last post.
 
Guys - I've been on the DAC Merry go round a long time. I've owned north of 20 DAC's and in many cases - the format/resolution was often a driving factor in "upgrading".

I don't want to spoil my review - but the Lumin S1 handles everything - including DSDx2 (and yes, I have downloaded some tracks recorded in DSDx2 and its phenomenal) - and it sounds incredible. PCM - especially Redbook - sounds amazing. Ditto for the A1.

I would personally not own the Lampi. I see it one step removed from DIY. I know Norman loves it - but Lampi's QC issues are well known.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The Soulution appears to use Burr Brown sigma-delta DAC's; not sure about the Berkeley.
 
Audioseduction said:
The Bel Canto DAC3.5vb MKII uses the Burr-Brown PCM1792 24-bit DAC chip. I think it's what makes this DAC sound so musical and just a joy to listen to!
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There a quite a few DAC's which use that chip (a typical delta-sigma design); I don't doubt that your Bel Canto sounds good, but I doubt you can ascribe its performance to the DAC chip.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
I already mention the PCM DACs I consider good. Prices are on line. My point was I didn't realize we were talking about which format was better at a particular price.
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I didn't know for sure either which is why I asked you the questions I asked. You mentioned 3 companies that make DACs as ones that make PCM sound good. MSB has DACs that sell for $74,950, at least one Trinity DAC sells for $41,900, and the latest DCS stack is over $108K. This validates the question I asked you when you wanted to know what DACs I used and after I told you, you said my comments all "made sense now." My reference DAC and the Lampi DAC I recently reviewed aren't in those ballparks with regards to cost which is what I thought you were hinting at. So while it may be clever to say you didn't realize we were talking about which format was better at a particular price, you certainly insinuated to me that was exactly what you were talking about. So my question to you remains the same, how much does a PCM DAC cost that can make PCM sound the way you know it can sound?

DACs age faster than dogs do. The rule of thumb is every year in a dog's life is equivalent to 7 years of a human life. And that is at least as fast as DACs age. A $100+k DAC stack today will be blown away by the sound quality of a $2k DAC within two years of the $100k DAC being released. Why in the world would you spend $50k to a $100k for a PCM DAC in order to make PCM sound decent? You can put very expensive lipstick on a pig and dress it in versace dresses and it will be a fancy looking pig, but your still dating a pig. I would rather date a hot chick with a pair of Levis, a T-shirt, and no makeup.


And my point in saying all of this is that a $1.600 Mytek Stereo 192 will make DSD sound incredible. If it takes at least $40k for PCM to compete with DSD, I think we have a problem.
 
The Mytek doesn't sound that good, IMO. It is a great DAC for the price, but I was glad it came with a 30-day trial period.
 
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