DSD, The last thing we need....

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rbbert said:
What! Another audiophile and industry professional who makes DSD ADC's and DAC's who prefers PCM?? It must be a conspiracy...
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I have had long PM debates with Charles (very nice gentleman). His main objection is BUSINESS. He thinks that PCM is more than good enough and more formats will confuse the issue of an already struggling industry. While I cant refute that. I still think the market has a mind of its own and the real future is with Dacs that can take any input and play back in any format. By this I dont mean just PCM or DSD, I mean any Delta sigma format, say 6/5.6mhz or 24/28mhz...why convert back to single bit format or one of today's "hirez" PCM formats before conversion to analog?

Many manufacturers also love DSD and some have no dogs in this fight.
 
BlueFox said:
Yes. Perfect attitude. Personally, I doubt if any high-res format (DSD vs 96/24, or higher, PCM) is superior to the other. At least not enough to be concerned about.

For example, the Japanese SHM SACD of Exile on Main Street is much better than the CD. However, my Blue Ray Audio of Exile on Main Street is, to me, just as good as the SACD, plus I can rip it to my music server.
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So why did Dave Wilson when he recently began the project to reissue all of his recordings digitally choose DSD? You know Dave is meticulous, listened to all the different digital formats and in the end chose 4XDSD. Not to mention he could have chosen any format he wanted (well with the exception of analog but that's a story for a another day). In fact, Dave supervised every step of the transfer with Bruce Brown.

Let's be honest. The reason most use PCM is because of the ability to edit. (Though I think now there's one work station where you can edit in DSD).
 
I thought Bruce ended up using the Grimm (at 2x DSD) because he thought that sounded better, that the 4x ADC's weren't really better sounding (yet)?
 
rbbert said:
I thought Bruce ended up using the Grimm (at 2x DSD) because he thought that sounded better, that the 4x ADC's weren't really better sounding (yet)?
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I'm not sure, perhaps Bruce can answer that. Even so that doesn't subtract from the original question.
 
[FONT=Droid Sans, Lucida Sans Unicode, Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A quote from Cyrill Hammer regarding his brand new SOTA $35,000 Soulution 560 DAC:[/FONT]

[FONT=Droid Sans, Lucida Sans Unicode, Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"As we consider the PCM conversion technology as superior, the DSD signals get converted before its final D/A conversion."


[/FONT]
 
FlexibleAudio said:
A quote from Cyrill Hammer regarding his brand new SOTA $35,000 Soulution 560 DAC:

"As we consider the PCM conversion technology as superior, the DSD signals get converted before its final D/A conversion."
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It's just an opinion. If you convert DSD to PCM, you no longer have DSD so why bother? Might as well stick with PCM rather than wasting money buying DSD files only to convert them to PCM. I find that DSD does not sound like PCM which is precisely why I like DSD. Other people claim to hear little to no difference and many have a preference for PCM. Regardless of whether you like or don't like DSD, it makes no sense to me to convert it to PCM.
 
This makes it all very clear.......or not.

To DSD or Not to DSD, That Is The Question: PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC v Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Reference Series | AudioStream

The Gordon Rankin (Wavelength) quote in the first comment to the article is telling:


"It would be relevant if DAC chips made today actually did native DSD. Since I think 2001 the TI/BB DSD1700 was the last true DSD chip made and it was only capable of DSD1 speeds.

Today all chip makers including ESS (used here) convert DSD inside the chip so that their digital filters and output stage works. These DAC chips made by ESS, TI/BB, AKM and Wolfson are all optimized for PCM output." Gordon
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mep said:
It's just an opinion. If you convert DSD to PCM, you no longer have DSD so why bother? Might as well stick with PCM rather than wasting money buying DSD files only to convert them to PCM. I find that DSD does not sound like PCM which is precisely why I like DSD. Other people claim to hear little to no difference and many have a preference for PCM. Regardless of whether you like or don't like DSD, it makes no sense to me to convert it to PCM.
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Cyrill is simply saying if you own DSD you can still use our DAC and we will convert it with a superior technology than is available with DSD. To that end, assuming Cyril is correct, I agree with you; why would anyone ever buy DSD to start?

One thing I think that still plagues PCM's perception is that the format lived through the "garbage years" for DAC technology and much of the harsh, artifact-ridden sound of a few years ago has been rectified by the fabulous clocking and precision of products from MSB, DCS, Trinity et. al.

MEP, I am curious what DAC's you used in developing your preference for DSD over PCM?
 
wisnon said:
Ever heard of Chipless DSD? Search it on the PT Audiophile site...
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Thanks Wisnon, I am checking it out. This topic is very timely for me as DSD versus PCM is the primary decision on the digital side of the system I am currently building.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Cyrill is simply saying if you own DSD you can still use our DAC and we will convert it with a superior technology than is available with DSD. To that end, assuming Cyril is correct, I agree with you; why would anyone ever buy DSD to start?

One thing I think that still plagues PCM's perception is that the format lived through the "garbage years" for DAC technology and much of the harsh, artifact-ridden sound of a few years ago has been rectified by the fabulous clocking and precision of products from MSB, DCS, Trinity et. al.

MEP, I am curious what DAC's you used in developing your preference for DSD over PCM?
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My reference DAC is the Mytek Stereo 192 mastering version. I also just reviewed a Lampizator Level 4 DAC for PFO so I have recent experience with that DAC as well. I started off with an Audio Alchemy DAC many years ago before outboard DACs were in common use.

The funny thing about DSD is that some people claim not to hear any difference between DSD and PCM (could those be the people whose DACs convert DSD to PCM?) and some people say they do hear a difference and yet they prefer PCM (could those be the people who detest analog and love PCM?). At my house and to my ears, DSD does not sound like PCM and it's no contest regarding which I prefer. DSD sounds much closer to analog than PCM why is why I prefer it and conversely it may be the reason that those that don't like analog prefer PCM.

The thing is, there is no 'right' answer. If you love the sound of PCM, I'm happy for you. Some people have built their entire system around playing nothing but RBCD and won't even think about trying hi-rez digital. As long as they are happy, that's all that matters. It doesn't mean that I don't think they have yet to hear everything their system is capable of, but again, it doesn't matter because they are happy.
 
Mark - in my recent tour of recording studios, I'm finding one common denominator (other than really cheap ass cables), they use this:

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1404577211.207747.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1404577224.466627.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Yes DSD sounds more like analog, in that it has less punch and dynamic than PCM.
A violin sonata in DSD will sound better (mellower and less fatiguing) than the same in PCM, but when you go to Joe Satriani - not to mention Ted Sirota or Queensryche - DSD just spells "It's sleepy time down South" :P
 
mep said:
My reference DAC is the Mytek Stereo 192 mastering version. I also just reviewed a Lampizator Level 4 DAC for PFO so I have recent experience with that DAC as well. I started off with an Audio Alchemy DAC many years ago before outboard DACs were in common use.

The funny thing about DSD is that some people claim not to hear any difference between DSD and PCM (could those be the people whose DACs convert DSD to PCM?) and some people say they do hear a difference and yet they prefer PCM (could those be the people who detest analog and love PCM?). At my house and to my ears, DSD does not sound like PCM and it's no contest regarding which I prefer. DSD sounds much closer to analog than PCM why is why I prefer it and conversely it may be the reason that those that don't like analog prefer PCM.

The thing is, there is no 'right' answer. If you love the sound of PCM, I'm happy for you. Some people have built their entire system around playing nothing but RBCD and won't even think about trying hi-rez digital. As long as they are happy, that's all that matters. It doesn't mean that I don't think they have yet to hear everything their system is capable of, but again, it doesn't matter because they are happy.
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Thanks mep, What I am really interested is what recent gear you have used to develop your recent view of PCM. I am trying to figure out whether your or anyone's view of the superiority of DSD to PCM is based on listening to PCM on the latest DAC's like Trinity, MSB or DCS which I think have come a lot closer to analog than even a few years ago. If they are getting as good as DSD then it seems like the better choice given the breadth of available tracks.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Thanks mep, What I am really interested is what recent gear you have used to develop your recent view of PCM. I am trying to figure out whether your or anyone's view of the superiority of DSD to PCM is based on listening to PCM on the latest DAC's like Trinity, MSB or DCS which I think have come a lot closer to analog than even a few years ago. If they are getting as good as DSD then it seems like the better choice given the breadth of available tracks.
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I think if you've been following Bruce Brown, owner of Puget Sounds Studio, the Mytek is one of his favorite DACs for the money. And Bruce gets them all in to carefully evaluate for his mastering. And mind you, Bruce's endpoint isn't what sounds good to him but which A-->D and D-->A brings his digital files closest to the sound of the tape he digitizing.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Thanks mep, What I am really interested is what recent gear you have used to develop your recent view of PCM. I am trying to figure out whether your or anyone's view of the superiority of DSD to PCM is based on listening to PCM on the latest DAC's like Trinity, MSB or DCS which I think have come a lot closer to analog than even a few years ago. If they are getting as good as DSD then it seems like the better choice given the breadth of available tracks.
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Paul-I thought I answered your question with regards to what recent gear I have used to hear PCM. It's my Mytek Stereo 192 and the Lampizator Level 4. I have not had any of the 'super' DACs (meaning super expensive) in my system.
 
mep said:
Paul-I thought I answered your question with regards to what recent gear I have used to hear PCM. It's my Mytek Stereo 192 and the Lampizator Level 4. I have not had any of the 'super' DACs (meaning super expensive) in my system.
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Ah, I understand. Sorry about the redundancy. It all makes perfect sense now. Thanks for your help.
 
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