DSD Playback on non dedicated audio equipment

CPP said:
Or invest in a 30 day trial and obtain a DSD dac and have a listen and a compare.
Click to expand...

As long as he is not the guy who sweats bullets at the prospect of an in-home trial and thinks shipping a DAC two states over will cost him a year's salary and his first born son.
 
mep said:
Maybe he should keep reading this every time he plays a DSD file over his PCM DAC and it will sound better. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

the pablum on Nuforce's site was likely written by Demian Martin, the same Martin that's part of 'audio cognoscenti' of silicon valley which includes prof Keith Johnson of Reference recordings, Rick Fryer of Spectral, the boys from Pacific microsonics née Berkeley Audio. They all seem to have one goal in common and that is marginalizing DSD.

My brush with a dedicated DSD dac was the mytech which I believe you still use. I tend to believe what others in the industry have said and continue to say that DSD is a flash in the pan and in the long run wont have the legs to dethrone hires PCM. then again its all moot to me as I'm 95% vinyl, the vast majority of my digital collection is 16/44. I own many SACDs I haven't listened to in over a year and a handful of DSD files I'll probably never hear again.
 
I think the future is multi-bit Delta-Sigma, but who knows?

If we had heeded "common knowledge", vinyl would have been extinct long ago, just like the 8-Track.
 
puroagave said:
the pablum on Nuforce's site was likely written by Demian Martin, the same Martin that's part of 'audio cognoscenti' of silicon valley which includes prof Keith Johnson of Reference recordings, Rick Fryer of Spectral, the boys from Pacific microsonics née Berkeley Audio. They all seem to have one goal in common and that is marginalizing DSD.

My brush with a dedicated DSD dac was the mytech which I believe you still use. I tend to believe what others in the industry have said and continue to say that DSD is a flash in the pan and in the long run wont have the legs to dethrone hires PCM. then again its all moot to me as I'm 95% vinyl, the vast majority of my digital collection is 16/44. I own many SACDs I haven't listened to in over a year and a handful of DSD files I'll probably never hear again.
Click to expand...

I don't believe "what others in the industry have said" and don't believe DSD is a "flash in the pan." And yes, I still have the Mytek Stereo 192. I'm an analog first, digital second kind of guy. I usually always turn on my system and let it play for 2 hours before I sit down to listen. This is where having a music server really comes in handy. Many times when I walk into my room to start my listening session, I find the sound of my DSD files so compelling I just sit down and listen and I'm in no big hurry to put on an LP. Does my LP rig sound better? Absolutely. That doesn't stop me from enjoying the very high level of playback quality I'm getting with DSD though.

As far as the industry wags go, their opinions are just that-opinions. Despite concerted efforts by the major record labels to kill off analog and LPs, they were never successful even though many 'normal' citizens are clueless that vinyl is still alive and well. DSD seems to have a little of that "you can't kill me off" herpes virus type effect going on just like analog. More and more people are becoming aware of DSD even if some of them are playing DSD files on DACs with no DSD capability and wondering why it sounds like PCM. Will the market for DSD ever be big? Will the market for hi-rez PCM ever be big? "Big" is a relative term and in relation to high-end audio, they both might be big. In the world of people who don't own any music and just stream music, the answer is no.

Far be it for me to try and convince someone who loves analog to invest in digital music of any sort. I'm just someone who likes having different sources and different choices depending on my mood, requirements at the time, or just feeling like a digital couch potato with my iPad sitting in my lap controlling my system. For those that have chosen to enter into a monogamous relationship with PCM digital and that is what you and your stereo system are wedded to until death or deaf do you part, you have my condolences. :D That would sort of be like marrying the first woman you ever took out on a date just because she was willing to go out with you.
 
mep said:
...Far be it for me to try and convince someone who loves analog to invest in digital music of any sort...
Click to expand...

I like DSD, I've always preferred the dsd layer of the hybrid discs I own, I can toggle between the two. the biggest issue I have is the dearth of native DSD recordings, at some point they've all been through the 'PCM washing machine.' it's like trying to find an all-analog vinyl release today of new music - nearly impossible. the few native DSD files I have are demo pieces I'd only play once in great while.
 
puroagave said:
I like DSD, I've always preferred the dsd layer of the hybrid discs I own, I can toggle between the two. the biggest issue I have is the dearth of native DSD recordings, at some point they've all been through the 'PCM washing machine.' it's like trying to find an all-analog vinyl release today of new music - nearly impossible. the few native DSD files I have are demo pieces I'd only play once in great while.
Click to expand...

Agreed, although I call it the PCM blender. The biggest PCM blender by far is if you have DRC/DSP in your system and you have analog sources in your system. I got tarred and feathered for stating that obvious truth on another forum. The funny part was that more than a few that were heating up the tar and plucking the feathers in order to get them ready for me were/are people who have no intentions of having DRC/DSP in their systems even though some of them were pure digital couch potatoes.

It all started when some genius remarked that on his friend's system who happens to have "the second best stereo system in the world" you can't tell DSD files from PCM. Duh. Of course you can't because now they are one and the same (almost). All hell broke loose when I explained that when you have DSP/DRC in your system, everything gets run through the PCM blender and changed into 24/96 PCM regardless of what the source files were before they were run through the blender. Have a bunch of 24/176.4 or 24/192 files? Too bad, because now they have been converted to 24/96. Have a bunch of DSD files? Too bad because they too are now 24/96 PCM.
 
puroagave said:
I like DSD, I've always preferred the dsd layer of the hybrid discs I own, I can toggle between the two. the biggest issue I have is the dearth of native DSD recordings, at some point they've all been through the 'PCM washing machine.' it's like trying to find an all-analog vinyl release today of new music - nearly impossible. the few native DSD files I have are demo pieces I'd only play once in great while.
Click to expand...

LOL, so how many native PCM albums do you own?
 
mep said:
It all started when some genius remarked that on his friend's system who happens to have "the second best stereo system in the world" you can't tell DSD files from PCM. Duh. Of course you can't because now they are one and the same (almost). All hell broke loose when I explained that when you have DSP/DRC in your system, everything gets run through the PCM blender and changed into 24/96 PCM regardless of what the source files were before they were run through the blender. Have a bunch of 24/176.4 or 24/192 files? Too bad, because now they have been converted to 24/96. Have a bunch of DSD files? Too bad because they too are now 24/96 PCM.
Click to expand...

That seems so obvious. Another reason to dislike DSP/DRC.

I do have a question - do you guys feel DoP affects the sound quality of the original DSD file in any way?

I'm having this discussion with Li at Lumin. He said an apple in a box is still an apple. Good analogy.

Thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Mike said:
That seems so obvious. Another reason to dislike DSP/DRC.

I do have a question - do you guys feel DoP affects the sound quality of the original DSD file in any way?

I'm having this discussion with Li at Lumin. He said an apple in a box is still an apple. Good analogy.

Thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Mike-I agree it seems obvious, but that didn't stop the tar and feather party from coming after me. As for thoughts on whether or not DoP affects the sound quality, I have not been able to make that comparison yet. Hopefully someone that has can chime in.
 
DoP is only packaging the original DSD bits in PCM formatted frames for transmission, using PCM as the carrier. Once the receiver recognizes the PCM signal as DoP as identified by its headers, it then converts the bits back into the original DSD data for conversion to analog. The resultant datastream should be identical to the original DSD. There could be a difference if there was an error in recovering or reconstructing the datastream, which in theory should not happen. If there is inadequate processing power in the DAC's receiver and recovery circuitry then such errors could occur, or additional jitter could be introduced to the digital signal before conversion to analog which would negatively impact the sound. It is generally agreed upon that with properly engineered gear, DSD transmitted via DoP to a capable DSD DAC should be reproduced identically to straight DSD transmission. There will always be those that find differently, so I have my flame proof suit standing by and ready for use...
 
Don't most DACs convert DSD to PCM and there is only very few which do not? By the way, I think the bottom line is for your ears alone to determine if it sounds best for you. I have heard several DSD DACS and I still like the sound of my DAC better even the Big dollar ones.
 
George - That's another issue entirely regarding how a given DAC handles DSD conversion to analog. I was just addressing the DoP process of data transmission in my previous post. I agree with you that the bottom line in all of this is how good the converted signal sounds, but of course that is very subjective.
 
Thinking further about George's point it is true that a minority of DACs actually convert DSD directly to analog, like those from Playback Designs, EMM Labs, PS Audio DirectStream, and some others do. An actual DSD DAC must first convert any PCM signal received to DSD before conversion to analog can occur. When DoP is used as a carrier for DSD data, that PCM data is NOT a standard PCM signal which could be directly converted by a PCM DAC. It has header information contained in the PCM format that identifies it as DoP formatted data, and once that is detected it is then converted back to the original DSD data. How that DSD data is handled for conversion to analog from that point is dependent upon the type of DAC being used.
 
audio.bill said:
Thinking further about George's point it is true that a minority of DACs actually convert DSD directly to analog, like those from Playback Designs, EMM Labs, PS Audio DirectStream, and some others do. An actual DSD DAC must first convert any PCM signal received to DSD before conversion to analog can occur. When DoP is used as a carrier for DSD data, that PCM data is NOT a standard PCM signal which could be directly converted by a PCM DAC. It has header information contained in the PCM format that identifies it as DoP formatted data, and once that is detected it is then converted back to the original DSD data. How that DSD data is handled for conversion to analog from that point is dependent upon the type of DAC being used.
Click to expand...

Lampi DSD is a separate Dac in the same box in most models. In the DSD-only model, it cannot play back PCM at all and only accepts DOP. It's essentially a filter box and the sound is outstanding...see Bruce Brown's review at Stereomojo.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top