DSD - (Don't Stream Digital)

Rayooo said:
yes, yes, 1000 times yes....I have said this time and time again.... I thought it was just me.
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The point is we want the mastering CARE AND the HD format. Best of both worlds. Pointless to debate which is more important when we can have both atb the same time.

What people seem to forget is that you need to match playback to the format of recording to have the best result. No point in upsampling RBCD to 24/192 and expecting miracles. Likewise if the native format is 24/96, playing it back at 24/192 wont be better.

Having said all this, DSD128 rules! LoL
 
wisnon said:
The point is we want the mastering CARE AND the HD format. Best of both worlds. Pointless to debate which is more important when we can have both atb the same time.

What people seem to forget is that you need to match playback to the format of recording to have the best result. No point in upsampling RBCD to 24/192 and expecting miracles. Likewise if the native format is 24/96, playing it back at 24/192 wont be better.

Having said all this, DSD128 rules! LoL
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I agree with this 100% also..and I've spent $thousands on HD audio tracks to prove it. And, the results have been mixed.
Buying vinyl for me was always a crap-shoot, buying CDs was also. I'd hoped HD audio would improve my odds a bit. In the end, spending upwards of 3X per recording has in some cases proved to be well worth it. In other cases, many cases, I should have bought the $10 CD and bought wine with the leftover $20.

My point is that I'll do and pay pretty much whatever the "high-end industry" wants me to do to acquire music that is produced and distributed via improved techniques. Unfortunately things continue as the were 20 years ago. ... and the only guarantee you get for spending 3X on the latest "fad" digital format is that you might have been just as happy with a $10 CD.

I'm an audiophile, overkill is where I live and breath, I'll spend $$ on whatever the latest super dooper ultra high-rez digital format is, unfortunately, I still feel like $$ is being stolen from me on a fairly regular basis...A fool and his money.....
 
The same crowd that wants you to believe 16/44.1 sounds the same as 24/96 or 24/192 is the same group that wants us to believe MP3 192 is indistinguishable from CD and therefore 24/96. It is a lot easier to say something, have us believe it and get back to business selling us crummy sounding, cheap, smaller sized 99 cent downloads through iTunes and Amazon.

The only way you will know is to do your own listening and tests. If you hear no difference, then a 99 cent MP3 download will suffice and a 1TB drive will last you forever.

Have I been disappointed in some high res downloads? Hell yes. The Doobie Brothers Long Train Running sounds absolutely dreadful. But they are few and far between.

Here is a possible experiment to try: buy "Hope" by Hugh Masakela on CD, SACD and Vinyl. I did. It's no contest. The vinyl is 10 times better than the CD. The SACD was slightly better than the CD. I've done the same for several recordings. Another example was George Benson - a tribute to Nat King Cole. In this case, the HD download was much better than the Vinyl and slightly better than the CD.

To me, I have found DSD/PCM HD downloads to be the safest. Vinyl is a close second, but I have had to send back a few new records for a replacement due to a bad pressing or whatever. CD has consistently been just mediocre.

At the end of the day, it's all about the original recording and mastering. Many great recordings are being remastered because we have better technology and better understanding of the reproduction of sound. If a recording is poorly done and poorly mastered (Adele, are you listening?), then no format can save it.

I will add this last thought - I have personally found that if the original recording was done on analog tape, staying in the analog domain (vinyl) sounds the best. However, if the original recording was done in the digital domain, then staying in its original sample and bit rate (and not downsampling or converting to analog for vinyl) - sounds the best.

But like Ray mentions above - sometimes, it's just a real crap shoot, leaving one to wonder "who is manning the ship?"
 
LoL Mike.

There is a 4th option for Hope. Ripping the SACD to DSD and playing back on an excellent DSD Dac. I have the CD, SACD and also the rip (I think, if not I will go rip it soon). I do agree the Vinyl is better as we played the CD (PBD-5) and the LP at Chez darTZeel and vinyl won. We didnt try the SACD nor ripped file though...
 
wisnon said:
The point is we want the mastering CARE AND the HD format. Best of both worlds.
Having said all this, DSD128 rules! LoL
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Yes and we also want PCM and DSD as in the best of both worlds. Thank you Norman, I was waiting for your contribution in this thread.
As you know I am a big fan of the Linn DS players and I think that it is a shame that Linn is publicly rejects DSD. As the arguably leading company in digital streaming I think they should at least supporting it even if it is not their favorite format. Let me decide what is better...
Here is a thread on the Linn forum, started by one of the Linn developers. Personally I think this is the kind of arrogance that brought respectable companies down. One recent example: Nokia ignoring the power of the full touch screen Apple iPhone too long. They are now part of Microsoft that also ignored it and missed the boat for smart phones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U
quote-there-s-no-chance-that-the-iphone-is-going-to-get-any-significant-market-share-no-chance-steve-ballmer-208933.jpg


Here is the Linn DSD thread:
Why DSD is a terrible idea in 2013
 
Yes Hans I agree. As much as I love DSD128, any PCM Hir rez and well mastered RBCD is by far "good enough".

I want machines so that I can play back whetever medium happens to be the best recorded one for a given album. I dont accept needless self-imposed limits here.

Its a pity that a great company like Linn is restricting their market penetration. Dogma is a hell of a thing.

 
Linn not supporting DSD is just silly. As Ken Ishikawa told me, "Marantz supports DSD because we found DSD chips to have even better PCM than stand alone PCM chips.

Lumin is worth checking out as a Linn like alternative.
 
+1 Mike.

Lumin also uses the open source Linn software, so its an easy migrate. Linn needs to wake up, just like Weiss.
 
Norman - check out the Weiss MAN 301. Also, is the Lumin DoP or true native DSD like Meitner? Is DoP a knock against the Lumin in your opinion? If so, why?
 
And my car doesn't need 400hp, but I would sure like it. :). The point is that if the market is demanding it, telling people they don't "need" it, will only drive them to competitors who give them what they want. I don't need cruise control, a sat nav or Bluetooth capabilities in my car either.....but I want them.

Do you remember all those people arguing for years about how "cables don't matter"? They made countless arguments telling us what we could and could not hear. They used measurements to tell us "look, see, you can't hear a difference!" - but we don't measure (and can't measure) everything. Our marvelous measurements don't tell us anything about depth of soundstage, tonality, musical balance, midrange bloom and countless other things our ears hear, but we can't measure. So take measurements with a grain of salt. Where are the cable nay Sayers now? Even the most harden ones have attended demonstrations and promptly changed their tune (no pun intended).

Whether one can hear the difference is dependent upon those individuals. To ignore market trends is foolish. James, take a look west down the 401 to Blackberry to see a current example.

Here is a suggestion to those in the DAC/Player business. Find out what the market wants. I would like a DAC (USB) and Network player (Ethernet) in one. A player that handles DSD128 natively and is upgradable. A separate music server (also upgradable) with a build in CD ripper that rips CD's quickly and uses DBPowerAmp or similar for grabbing meta data. The music server would have SSD's and the option for attachable storage or a NAS. Other digital inputs on the DAC/Player. Basically, I want it all. :)
 
Mike said:
Linn not supporting DSD is just silly. As Ken Ishikawa told me, "Marantz supports DSD because we found DSD chips to have even better PCM than stand alone PCM chips.

Lumin is worth checking out as a Linn like alternative.
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wisnon said:
+1 Mike.

Lumin also uses the open source Linn software, so its an easy migrate. Linn needs to wake up, just like Weiss.
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Theoretically yes but unfortunately the Lumin is just about Linn Majik level....


Linn Klimax DS/1 vs Akurate DS/1 vs Majik DS vs Lumin - Side-by-Side Comparison

file.php
 
Hi Mike - answer I gave to a customer.


HI James.

indeed very interesting. But doesn't all of this obliterate most of your digital product line ? If all above 16bit 44.1 is useless in respect to audio quality, why bother. Even your newly presented BUC1 could be left unpacked :scratch:

I must say Ive always been very happy with the bcd1, but this seems to me to be rather disturbing for an audio manufacturer like you are, that always sticks to whats measured.

Thanks for keeping us informed!
Marius



Its a great question Marius and one I wrestle with myself.

A recent example is DSD which the market place is forcing us all to embrace for reasons that may have more to do with vested interest over scientific knowledge. Offering a DAC today limited to 44.1 would be financially suicidal for a company regardless of your personal opinion on the merits of high resolution file playback.

I guess my position is I want to explore all areas without prejudice and ultimately the market will decide what is fact and what is fiction.

james
 
Very smart James. Now, find out what the market wants and here's a hint - it's not another "me too" DAC. Bryston thinks outside the box with the BDA/BDP concept and excellent speakers. I'm sure your next foray into the digital domain will be the same.

I like Ethernet vs USB FWIW. The day I can banish that damn computer from my listening room, will be a happy day!

....you may need to hire a software developer to build a custom Bryston app. Here's a hint: check out elance.com and freelance.com
 
CH Precision now and soon darTZeel will have Ethernet Dacs able to play directly from a NAS.
 
DoP is pure DSD wrapped in a shell. Whether the Dac can process DSD natively or not is another thing. it depends on its architecture. Only the 1 bit chips or the Lampi filter box are "native". The rest do all kinds of processing and some even convert to straight PCM. The final result will depend on the quality of implementation but if you want true native, there are only a few options. Certain Cirrus logic chipsets, PBD, Meitner, EMM and Lampi.

Lumin uses the Sabre Dac chip, UI think and in the BMC Pure Dac, I hear it sounds good.
 
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