DSD capable DACs

[Cavl]

Apologies if this topic has been covered, but I'm new to the forum. I'm considering a new DAC that is capable of handling DSD. I currently have a Linn Klimax (not the latest version) which I continue to enjoy - I've had it about 3+ years. Any thoughts on the DSD format and DACs (budget ceiling of around $15K) is appreciated. Ones on my current list include MSB, Playback Design, Meitner, EMM 2X, Antelope Platinum.

Thanks in advance for the information.

 

[Mike]

Welcome! I would look at the Meitner MA-1 and the MSB Analog DAC. I've owned the DAC2X and feel my current DAC (Meitner MA-1) is superior. The DAC2X was just too much of a good thing. Uber detailed, losing some of the musicality. The MA-1 strikes the perfect balance. Rich and detailed sounding, but very musical.

There is a software update coming for the MA-1 early next year and it will be easy to install and raise the level of performance of the MA-1 even higher.

 

[Ritmo]

I listened to the Bricasti this past weekend at RMAF and liked it very much. It supports DSD.

 

[Rayooo]

Welcome! I would look at the Meitner MA-1 and the MSB Analog DAC. I've owned the DAC2X and feel my current DAC (Meitner MA-1) is superior. The DAC2X was just too much of a good thing. Uber detailed, losing some of the musicality. The MA-1 strikes the perfect balance. Rich and detailed sounding, but very musical.

There is a software update coming for the MA-1 early next year and it will be easy to install and raise the level of performance of the MA-1 even higher.

+1 on the MA-1 ! I also compared DAC2DSDse, while the DAC2 is a real "swiss army knife" in that it'll play anything you throw at it, I preferred the MA-1. This is in no way a knock on the DAC2, it's a bargain in my opinion and the W4S outfit is top notch. Considering the cost difference between DAC2 and MA-1, the MA-1 better sound better. Welcome Cavl !

 

[Cavl]

+1 on the MA-1 ! I also compared DAC2DSDse, while the DAC2 is a real "swiss army knife" in that it'll play anything you throw at it, I preferred the MA-1. This is in no way a knock on the DAC2, it's a bargain in my opinion and the W4S outfit is top notch. Considering the cost difference between DAC2 and MA-1, the MA-1 better sound better. Welcome Cavl !

Thanks for the information guys. Very interesting on the Meitner compared to the EMM considering the cost difference. Has anyone heard the Antelope Platinum?

Van

 

[Rayooo]

Welcome! I would look at the Meitner MA-1 and the MSB Analog DAC. I've owned the DAC2X and feel my current DAC (Meitner MA-1) is superior. The DAC2X was just too much of a good thing. Uber detailed, losing some of the musicality. The MA-1 strikes the perfect balance. Rich and detailed sounding, but very musical.

There is a software update coming for the MA-1 early next year and it will be easy to install and raise the level of performance of the MA-1 even higher.

Mike, 'don't what to hijack this thread...but is there any additional info on what possible features will be added to the MA1 via the firmware update?

 

[Mike]

Mike, 'don't what to hijack this thread...but is there any additional info on what possible features will be added to the MA1 via the firmware update?

The Emm Labs rep was very hush-hush. All he said was "you will love your MA-1 even more when the firmware upgrade comes out in January". I asked if it was going to be more feature related or sonic related - and he said "sonic".

 

[Rayooo]

The Emm Labs rep was very hush-hush. All he said was "you will love your MA-1 even more when the firmware upgrade comes out in January". I asked if it was going to be more feature related or sonic related - and he said "sonic".

Very cool.. It'll be like a Christmas present in January.

 

[wisnon]

Welcome! I would look at the Meitner MA-1 and the MSB Analog DAC. I've owned the DAC2X and feel my current DAC (Meitner MA-1) is superior. The DAC2X was just too much of a good thing. Uber detailed, losing some of the musicality. The MA-1 strikes the perfect balance. Rich and detailed sounding, but very musical.

There is a software update coming for the MA-1 early next year and it will be easy to install and raise the level of performance of the MA-1 even higher.

I like the MA-1 recc more than the MSB and would also include those other DACs that play TRUE native DSD, like PBD.

Many Dacs are just converting to PCM, quasi PCM and doing all kinds of DSP actions internally. That is NOT true DSD. All that is really needed for DSD is high quality filtration and if using a converter system ,its should be FPGA or 1 bit processing (I think Cirrus has this) to keep the signal in DSD right through. Some makers have such high quality conversion that it can be argued that you dont lose much, but I like the purist approach...as elaborated in my article at PTaudiophile.com.

I would say that roughly 90% of the DSD Dacs out there are not true DSD.

 

[Mike]

I like the MA-1 recc more than the MSB and would also include those other DACs that play TRUE native DSD, like PBD.

Many Dacs are just converting to PCM, quasi PCM and doing all kinds of DSP actions internally. That is NOT true DSD. All that is really needed for DSD is high quality filtration and if using a converter system ,its should be FPGA or 1 bit processing (I think Cirrus has this) to keep the signal in DSD right through. Some makers have such high quality conversion that it can be argued that you dont lose much, but I like the purist approach...as elaborated in my article at PTaudiophile.com.

I would say that roughly 90% of the DSD Dacs out there are not true DSD.

FINALLY someone speaks the truth! Thank you. I say this to many DAC manufacturers that converting DSD to PCM is NOT DSD. And when you get pure DSD recordings like those from Blue Coast Records, you can tell a difference. At RMAF there was a big push toward DSD. That new Sony device is the bomb. At $2k it's a giant killer. Sounded really really good too. Built like a tank as well. Loved the screen too. I wonder though whether it converts DSD to PCM....I wouldn't think so since it's a Sony. I forgot to ask.

 

[Rayooo]

I like the MA-1 recc more than the MSB and would also include those other DACs that play TRUE native DSD, like PBD.

Many Dacs are just converting to PCM, quasi PCM and doing all kinds of DSP actions internally. That is NOT true DSD. All that is really needed for DSD is high quality filtration and if using a converter system ,its should be FPGA or 1 bit processing (I think Cirrus has this) to keep the signal in DSD right through. Some makers have such high quality conversion that it can be argued that you dont lose much, but I like the purist approach...as elaborated in my article at PTaudiophile.com.

I would say that roughly 90% of the DSD Dacs out there are not true DSD.

Interesting you mention that most DSD capable DACs convert internally to "fit" the original chip set they are using e.g.. the ever popular Sabre. Obviously the MA 1 uses native DSD for Dac, which I assume is one reason there is no digital volume control. This all sounded good to me right up until I realized that 99% of my music currently is standard PCM, meaning it'll have to be converted within the MA 1 to DSD for DAC. So is it better to convert PCM to DSD? or DSD to PCM? I don't know. The MA 1 works good in any case...but of course it doesn't do the double rate and above DSD. too much technology, not enough music!

 

[wisnon]

Oh Mike, there is so much to this. I filled in Joe alredy and will fill you in later....

 

[wisnon]

Interesting you mention that most DSD capable DACs convert internally to "fit" the original chip set they are using e.g.. the ever popular Sabre. Obviously the MA 1 uses native DSD for Dac, which I assume is one reason there is no digital volume control. This all sounded good to me right up until I realized that 99% of my music currently is standard PCM, meaning it'll have to be converted within the MA 1 to DSD for DAC. So is it better to convert PCM to DSD? or DSD to PCM? I don't know. The MA 1 works good in any case...but of course it doesn't do the double rate and above DSD. too much technology, not enough music!

There are hybrid Dacs out there that have 2 different and output optimised "conversion/filtration" system architectures and which also support DSD128. Lampizator is one and many will soon refresh to have a similar approach. We will soon be facing a mini deluge from what I have seens and heard recently.

BTW, DSD128 is divine!!!!! I kid you not.

As an aside, I was told that the formidable Calyx Femto Dac deliberately did NOT enable DSD despite having the sabre Chip because they did not want to compromise the PCM with DSD (potential RFI/EMI issues) and they also did not want a compromised output stage. I guess the extra shielding needed and extra components for a totally separate output stage was not worth it in their eyes, especially when you consider that the Sabre Chip does lots of processing with the DSD signal. The Femto is an all out assault on PCM and perhaps they wanted nothing to interfere with that. My conjecture.

 

[Rayooo]

There are hybrid Dacs out there that have 2 different and output optimised "conversion/filtration" system architectures and which also support DSD128. Lampizator is one and many will soon refresh to have a similar approach. We will soon be facing a mini deluge from what I have seens and heard recently.

DSD128 is divine!!!!! i kid you not.

I've accepted the "fact" ? that having to buy a new DAC every year or so is probably the reality for the foreseeable future. I fought getting the MA 1 for the DSD128 issue alone. How about DSD256? It's just going to P me off big-time the first time I have to go set JRiver internal DSP to change a DSD128 file to DSD64 to make it work with my NEW MA 1.
Ah well, that's all part of the fun I guess.

 

[wisnon]

DSD128 pushes the ultrasonic noise above 40-50khz already, so, i dont expect or so a rationale for significant playback benefits above 128. Well implemented DSD64 already is a revelation, and 128 is only stunning in that you dont expect to improve upon "perfection" but you do get a subjective 5-10% bump up in SQ!

This is NOT a knock against quality PCM, just a different flavor of Ben&Jerrys! Smmother versus fruity explosion...its a mood/preference thing.

There is so little DSD128 available today that you could simply keep you MA-1 and get a Geek to play DSD128 until you see a major revison or implementation that blows you away! No need to chop and change...

Besides, from what mike said, its likely that the firmware roll in January will enable 128 on the MA-1...that is what i intuit anyway. We have been waiting on the Chord Qute HD to do the same for 6 months now.

Incidentally the Qute is a PCM champ when fed with superb LPSU, but DSD64 is just adequate. I surmise that its is NOT a true DSD Dac now, BUT given its FPGA architecture, they COULD possible enable an alternative filtration pathway for DSD when it sense the signal and perhaps boost the performance. Lampi "pure" tube/SS filtration DSD sounds much better to my ears at the moment. The Duelund caps also contribute nicely to the output analog signal.

 

[hiro100]

I like what Lampizator is doing. Making one dac strictly for PCM and a Dac strictly for DSD. I like the approach that there must be a compromise if you're trying to be a jack of all trades. Although, the Lampizator was not to my preference when I auditioned it, I'm really curious to hear their DSD tube dac as it looks to be a really different approach.

 

[wisnon]

They are having a Rave in Princeton NJ this weekend (see AudioCircle) with 3 systems playing. There will be several PCM Dac levels there and a DSD-only dac, plus the lampi GM70 monoblocs and Lukasz himself will be there. Sounds like fun. I wish I was there to meet my fellow Lampi owners and L., himself as I have never met any of them and that would be a thrill. I have only met a couple owners in boston, but they never post online.

BTW Hiro, he will also have hyrid dacs that do both and they will have separate sections, be well shielded (DSD encased) and only share the final tube output stage (and I guess the USB board)...everything else, including power supply will be separate.

However, I agree with you that theoretically the separate Dacs are more intuitively purist, but convenience and space is a consideration for many.

 

[Jin]

Many Dacs are just converting to PCM, quasi PCM and doing all kinds of DSP actions internally. That is NOT true DSD...I would say that roughly 90% of the DSD Dacs out there are not true DSD.

For this reason I would suggest to the OP to seek out a DAC with a true 1-bit convertor inside. This rules out DACs containing off the shelf conversion chips (like Sabre) and AFAIK necessitates a DAC employing proprietary discrete conversion (at least until such conversion chips become "mass market"). There's too much obfuscation in marketing material about what constitutes "native DSD processing". I would also recommend one that supports DSD 128; there is a difference, and if/when it becomes mainstream, you'll want this capability.

 

[Rayooo]

DSD128 pushes the ultrasonic noise above 40-50khz already, so, i dont expect or so a rationale for significant playback benefits above 128. Well implemented DSD64 already is a revelation, and 128 is only stunning in that you dont expect to improve upon "perfection" but you do get a subjective 5-10% bump up in SQ!

This is NOT a knock against quality PCM, just a different flavor of Ben&Jerrys! Smmother versus fruity explosion...its a mood/preference thing.

There is so little DSD128 available today that you could simply keep you MA-1 and get a Geek to play DSD128 until you see a major revison or implementation that blows you away! No need to chop and change...

Besides, from what mike said, its likely that the firmware roll in January will enable 128 on the MA-1...that is what i intuit anyway. We have been waiting on the Chord Qute HD to do the same for 6 months now.

Incidentally the Qute is a PCM champ when fed with superb LPSU, but DSD64 is just adequate. I surmise that its is NOT a true DSD Dac now, BUT given its FPGA architecture, they COULD possible enable an alternative filtration pathway for DSD when it sense the signal and perhaps boost the performance. Lampi "pure" tube/SS filtration DSD sounds much better to my ears at the moment. The Duelund caps also contribute nicely to the output analog signal.

I didn't want to get my hopes up that the Jan MA 1 update might include DSD128... but having said that, my hopes are up. haha.

 

[NorthStar]

It's nice to have the choice; down-converted to PCM, and pure DSD stream.

Also, the music recording itself doesn't always originated from DSD, but directly from PCM.

At the end it's what sounds best, to our set of ears, and the more choices we have the better at this we are.