Don’t real audiophiles own their own media?

[TheOctopus]

Re: Don't real audiophiles own their own media?

I would agree, but the majority of the responses have been from music lovers.

SQ is dependent upon many things including the media used. Streaming doesn’t provide the best media. Take for instance, “The Doors.” Nothing that you may stream by The Doors can equal this - not even close -

The Doors-The Doors-45 RPM Vinyl Record|Acoustic Sounds

Media matters to an Audiophile.

Vinyl--- Did I clean this record? Is my stylus clean? Is my rig setup optimally? Why does my rig suffer from such static pops in the winter? What is that surface noise, I thought this was a good pressing... I think my VTF and VTA need tweaking. What was it I wanted to listen to a few minutes ago? Where is that record again? Why is it warped, I thought I had it stored properly.... Damn...

Streamer--- I see 12 versions of the Doors album. Hmmm. This one looks good. Click Play. Ah! That a is good!

 

[Mike]

Vinyl--- Did I clean this record? Is my stylus clean? Is my rig setup optimally? Why does my rig suffer from such static pops in the winter? What is that surface noise, I thought this was a good pressing... I think my VTF and VTA need tweaking. What was it I wanted to listen to a few minutes ago? Where is that record again? Why is it warped, I thought I had it stored properly.... Damn...

Streamer--- I see 12 versions of the Doors album. Hmmm. This one looks good. Click Play. Ah! That a is good!

Oh look what we have here, a steak cooked to perfection at a three star Michelin restaurant.

Oh look over there, 12 steaks from the Golden Coral.

Quality matters.

 

[TheOctopus]

Physical Media Audiophile. I'm in the mood for Beethoven's 5th this afternoon... I have this on this CD, this one and that one... I also have this on this record and that one...

Streaming Audiophile. I'm in the mood for Beethoven's 5th this afternoon. Click.... I see 1724 versions between Tidal and Qobuz. Which orchestra and conductor do I prefer? Oh yeah, let's play the Pittsburg Symphony Orchestra, nope, not that great, how about London Symphony? Not bad, how about Berlin Sympohony, OH... WOW, that's the one! I have 1721 more versions to explore. Which Symphony, part of the world, year and conductor do I prefer? Can't believe I have access to all this!

 

[TheOctopus]

Oh look what we have here, a steak cooked to perfection at a three star Michelin restaurant.



Oh look over there, 12 steaks from the Golden Coral.



Quality matters.

Mike, you honestly believe every audiophile is enjoying a top notch vinyl rig setup optimally? As an audio dealer, I know you know better.... I don't find anything wrong with listening to whatever you want but let's call a spade a spade here OK?

 

[Randy Myers]

Oh look what we have here, a steak cooked to perfection at a three star Michelin restaurant.

Oh look over there, 12 steaks from the Golden Coral.

Quality matters.

Yup, yupppp, YUPPPPP.... Perfect analog Mike!

I might not always have the budget for a steak at the three star restaurant, but I strive for that quality. I do not have time, or the want to waste the time I have exploring hundreds upon hundreds of versions of the same piece of music. I find the one I like, I purchase the album weather it be on CD, SACD (with either optical version I rip it and put it on my server so that it is in fact one click away), Digital Download (one click away if I am not in the mood to care for and appreciate my wonderful vinyl), or Vinyl (when I am willing to put the little extra work for the treat).

If I am in the mood to listen to that music I put on that version and enjoy at a better quality and thank my lucky stars that I did not have the headache of trying to test several hundred different versions of the same musical piece.

 

[TheOctopus]

Strangely enough, I thought I heard quite a difference between my Technics SL1200 MKIV, my AES Paschetto, my SME 20.2, my friends TW-Acustic Raven AC, another friends VPI Aries, another Clearaudio Innovation and I have heard others at various dealers... Not sure how to quantify the difference. We keep going around in circles here saying that every analog lover is eating a steak at a three star restaurant. Is that really so or does it just sound good in theory?

 

[Mike]

Strangely enough, I thought I heard quite a difference between my Technics SL1200 MKIV, my AES Paschetto, my SME 20.2, my friends TW-Acustic Raven AC, another friends VPI Aeries, another Clearaudio Innovation and I have heard others at various dealers... Not sure how to quantify the difference. We keep going around in circles here saying that every analog lover is eating a steak at a three star restaurant. Is that really so or does it just sound good in theory?

well, let’s take a look at things in detail. Let’s start by asking you a question.

Do you believe that the quality of a DAC matters or is the DAC in your mobile phone good enough for your system? Is a Chord Mojo “good enough”?

 

[Randy Myers]

There will always be a variance in equipment. In digital there are many variables also, and in streaming even more so since now your network, ISP, the Internet, sun spots, etc., etc. are in the equation. What is being discussed is the differences in the media and the enjoyment of the music in my system, not whatever other $100k turntable that someone else may own.

 

[still-one]

It is the quality of the performance not the quality of the recording that is important.

 

[mep]

Strangely enough, I thought I heard quite a difference between my Technics SL1200 MKIV, my AES Paschetto, my SME 20.2, my friends TW-Acustic Raven AC, another friends VPI Aries, another Clearaudio Innovation and I have heard others at various dealers... Not sure how to quantify the difference. We keep going around in circles here saying that every analog lover is eating a steak at a three star restaurant. Is that really so or does it just sound good in theory?

Even if every analog lover isn't eating the audiophile equivalent of a steak at a 3 star restaurant, it doesn't mean they aren't trying. Being motivated to achieve the best analog playback within your budget is much preferable to throwing turds into every audiophile punch bowl you see on AS.

 

[TheOctopus]

That's the problem, we can't seem to agree on absolute terms here. Some think a Chord Mojo for $500 sounds great, because it does. Another audiophile will want the Taiko Extreme feeding MSB $100k DAC.

Statistically speaking the musician cares not one bit about either... But he does have a preference for his/her musical instrument.

Ask an audiophile to identify a Steinway, a Baldwin, a Bösendorfer on his Taiko Exteme feeding an MSB DAC though... Good luck.

Now we are arguing about quantity over quality as if all streaming is now inferior to the used LPs in most audiophiles collections. They are USED if you spin them before you get upset at my terminology.

I don't get this at all, are we just arguing for the sake of arguing here? What is the point of this thread? To convince people to drop streaming and start collecting vinyl? We have objectively covered the pluses and minuses of each.

Do as you like at the end of the day.

In the time it took to type out the last 5 posts, I have discovered 3 new musicians I have never heard on Qobuz that I want to listen to now. I'm having fun with streaming! Love it. Have fun collecting physical media, I have done that for decades as well.

 

[brad225]

Oh look what we have here, a steak cooked to perfection at a three star Michelin restaurant.

Oh look over there, 12 steaks from the Golden Coral

Quality matters.

Even to a vegetarian, that matters.

 

[Shadowfax]

That's the problem, we can't seem to agree on absolute terms here. Some think a Chord Mojo for $500 sounds great, because it does. Another audiophile will want the Taiko Extreme feeding MSB $100k DAC.

You do realize that you are talking about two extremes of people here right? The person who can afford the MSB and already has a high end system will surely not be settling on the Mojo. In reverse, the person who purchases the Mojo could already be stretching their budget and will never afford a $100K pc of anything. Not every "Audiophile" has a quarter million dollar system but enjoys what they have just the same as the guy who does.

I don't get this at all, are we just arguing for the sake of arguing here? What is the point of this thread? To convince people to drop streaming and start collecting vinyl? We have objectively covered the pluses and minuses of each.

Pretty much a discussion since this is AS and not AA but in general it was a roll call for those who stream vs those who like physical media. IMO they are both Audiophiles if they love music and listen for the love of it no matter what price kit they own.

 

[Mike]

Ok, so I will take that as a yes, DAC’s do matter. Well here’s the problem:

EVERY SINGLE digital recording MUST go through an Analog to Digital conversion process. So when you click play on that track on Tidal or Qobuz, you are at the mercy of whatever piece of crap A2D converter was used at that time. Think about A2D converters in the 80’s, 90’s, etc.

A few summers ago, we toured recording studios. Their A2D converters are absolute junk. They said “$500 would be a huge expense on an A2D.” Many smaller studios are using the A2D built into their Mac computers and software.

They are not using high quality A2D converters like the ones from Merging Technologies. They are using very inexpensive A2D converters and up until about 2015, most were not even the equivalent of a Chord Mojo on the DAC side. I saw them with my own eyes and talked to a famous Mastering Engineer for confirmation.

When you add to that the obsession with compression, you now have a true double edged sword for many modern digital recordings.

Mastering Engineer Bob Katz is a friend of mine. I was introduced to Bob many years ago by our mutual friend Mike Chaffee who sadly passed away earlier this year from Covid. Bob has been to my house, I’ve been to his house, we’ve chatted many times. I’ve read his books on Mastering. I attended the seminar he gave to our audiophile society. Did you know that MOST recordings today are cut to 24/96, and those 24/192 files are usually just upsampled 24/96 done on not the best equipment in the world? That’s why the 24/96 often sounds better! I’ve talked to Bob at length to really understand what the hell is going on with digital today.

Here’s a little story: I have a local customer named Bill. His absolute favorite album in the world is “Sinatra and Strings”. Bill is a streaming/digital only guy. Every time Bill would come in the store, he would play the album and mumble wondering how Frank could allow such a terrible recording. “Listen! Listen!” he would say, “those strings are so harsh sounding. How could Frank approve of this?” I said “Bill, I have an original first pressing of this album at home and a MOFI repressing from the master tapes. I’ll bring them in.”

The next time Bill was in the store, I put on both albums, his jaw hit the floor. “It wasn’t the recording at all!!!!!” he shouted. Yup, it was the horrible A2D conversion process.

There are great digital recordings where they’ve taken the time and care to do things right. Listening to the recordings of say Rumer are a perfect example of outstanding digital.

But when you look at the Doors album above, that’s coming from the master tapes, using proper equipment and it will NEVER EVER see an A2D process, at least for the vinyl pressing.

So yes, quality matters, provenance of the recording version you are listening to really matters. Everything matters. And this is why audiophiles seeking the best of their favorite albums do their homework and buy media.

 

[TheOctopus]

Having owned various turntables, tonearms, cartridges, phonostages, CD players, transports, DACs and now into streaming, I think I have a fairly good understanding of the concept of not only good sound, which is important, but even more importantly what I prefer. There will be tradeoffs with any of the technology we use to reproduce recorded music in our listening rooms or our headphones. It is a fact. I do not suffer from delusional thinking I am chasing some perfection with my audio and will be the first to admit my system is nowhere near the "accurate" category. It is musical and enjoyable and that is to my own ears and not necessarily anyone elses.

Much like a chef did not ask you to assist in preparing that steak for you, the recording engineer did not call up John, Joe and Peter to ask how they would like their music served on the record or a CD. Not even the digitally stored versions of the streaming platforms. Oh, the heresy!

That moment, when the bow resonated the body of the Stradivarius through the strings in the skilled hands of a concert violinist, will never sound the same no matter how much one wants it to be true. Unless you hire that musician to do the same in your own room. So starting the conversation from that perspective, should be obvious enough to audiophiles that we are chasing some abstract and unobtainable goals.

There was too much in the signal path between that moment of "analog" sound wave propagation and interaction with the acoustic space, captured by the various sounding microphones that added their own flavor, followed by the recording engineer feeding the signal through hundreds of feet of regular, industry standard, patch cables and electronic circuitry in the mixing console...

So everything we do as audiophiles, is for the pleasure and enjoyment of the pre-recorded music. Whatever form it materializes into our living rooms. By definition, if every component and cable makes a difference, then only one of them can ever be RIGHT, while every other is then by definition is WRONG.

So what are we arguing about here other than having fun listening to whatever version we have concocted in our living rooms? Shouldn't it be about enjoying music? No one says one must sacrifice or should not spend whatever they desire on their dream system/music making machines. Or what and how to feed through them for music to come out the other end...

 

[mep]

Ok, so I will take that as a yes, DAC’s do matter. Well here’s the problem:

EVERY SINGLE digital recording MUST go through an Analog to Digital conversion process. So when you click play on that track on Tidal or Qobuz, you are at the mercy of whatever piece of crap A2D converter was used at that time. Think about A2D converters in the 80’s, 90’s, etc.

A few summers ago, we toured recording studios. Their A2D converters are absolute junk. They said “$500 would be a huge expense on an A2D.” Many smaller studios are using the A2D built into their Mac computers and software.

They are not using high quality A2D converters like the ones from Merging Technologies. They are using very inexpensive A2D converters and up until about 2015, most were not even the equivalent of a Chord Mojo on the DAC side. I saw them with my own eyes and talked to a famous Mastering Engineer for confirmation.

When you add to that the obsession with compression, you now have a true double edged sword for many modern digital recordings.

Mastering Engineer Bob Katz is a friend of mine. I was introduced to Bob many years ago by our mutual friend Mike Chaffee who sadly passed away earlier this year from Covid. Bob has been to my house, I’ve been to his house, we’ve chatted many times. I’ve read his books on Mastering. I attended the seminar he gave to our audiophile society. Did you know that MOST recordings today are cut to 24/96, and those 24/192 files are usually just upsampled 24/96 done on not the best equipment in the world? That’s why the 24/96 often sounds better! I’ve talked to Bob at length to really understand what the hell is going on with digital today.

Here’s a little story: I have a local customer named Bill. His absolute favorite album in the world is “Sinatra and Strings”. Bill is a streaming/digital only guy. Every time Bill would come in the store, he would play the album and mumble wondering how Frank could allow such a terrible recording. “Listen! Listen!” he would say, “those strings are so harsh sounding. How could Frank approve of this?” I said “Bill, I have an original first pressing of this album at home and a MOFI repressing from the master tapes. I’ll bring them in.”

The next time Bill was in the store, I put on both albums, his jaw hit the floor. “It wasn’t the recording at all!!!!!” he shouted. Yup, it was the horrible A2D conversion process.

There are great digital recordings where they’ve taken the time and care to do things right. Listening to the recordings of say Rumer are a perfect example of outstanding digital.

But when you look at the Doors album above, that’s coming from the master tapes, using proper equipment and it will NEVER EVER see an A2D process, at least for the vinyl pressing.

So yes, quality matters, provenance of the recording version you are listening to really matters. Everything matters. And this is why audiophiles seeking the best of their favorite albums do their homework and buy media.

I'm pretty sure 24/96 files aren't the only digital files being upsampled to 24/192. I will take a 16/44.1 file that was actually cut from the master tape back in the day when major labels were converting their master tapes to digital over some "hi-rez" files that are nothing more than upsampled versions of the 16/44.1 file that have had all of the life sucked out of them.

 

[TheOctopus]

Mike, good post about the state of digital above. It is what it is. No one asked neither you nor me how it should be done and I am not so sure I would be the person to ask because someone else may want something different... We all even hear things differently. Physiological fact. Our brain processes the sound through a complex mechanism and at the end, it is just neurons firing electrical signals through whatever A/D conversion and quality thereof.. Everyone will be different there too. Some are born with a Chord Mojo others like Mr. Albert Einstein obviously had a quality A/D converter installed by the powers that be.. It is more evident these days than ever before perhaps.

I would love to imagine a world where even the 1200 or so of my favorite Jazz albums can be acquired in the best quality imaginable on vinyl and be played back on the meanest, quietest, meatiest, turntable with the the blacks of the silence darker than the black hole itself and the highs as shimmery as the warm summer sun but without the scorching of my ears. Let the midrange be as juicy and meaty and as flavorful as the best steak you have ever tasted and the bass response so deep, tight and thunderous that it would make Thor jealous. Alas, there is that and there is the reality that I would never come up with even 1200 of those albums nor would I even attempt to.

See, the thing is, we keep coming back to sound quality vs actual music. So I will repeat myself again. I would rather be able to tell the difference between the various concert grand pianos, their tuning, maybe even recognize the hands that are playing but more realistically remember which composer and movement it is I am hearing on a very mediocre system...

I would much rather that, then saying, that is a nice piano recording on the I robbed a bank/won the lottery/spent my kids college fund/cashed in my retirement fund/ grandioso supreme system...

So it does really boil down to sound vs music...

 

[Mike]

Mike, good post about the state of digital above. It is what it is. No one asked neither you nor me how it should be done and I am not so sure I would be the person to ask because someone else may want something different... We all even hear things differently. Physiological fact. Our brain processes the sound through a complex mechanism and at the end, it is just neurons firing electrical signals through whatever A/D conversion and quality thereof.. Everyone will be different there too. Some are born with a Chord Mojo others like Mr. Albert Einstein obviously had a quality A/D converter installed by the powers that be.. It is more evident these days than ever before perhaps.

I would love to imagine a world where even the 1200 or so of my favorite Jazz albums can be acquired in the best quality imaginable on vinyl and be played back on the meanest, quietest, meatiest, turntable with the the blacks of the silence darker than the black hole itself and the highs as shimmery as the warm summer sun but without the scorching of my ears. Let the midrange be as juicy and meaty and as flavorful as the best steak you have ever tasted and the bass response so deep, tight and thunderous that it would make Thor jealous. Alas, there is that and there is the reality that I would never come up with even 1200 of those albums nor would I even attempt to.

See, the thing is, we keep coming back to sound quality vs actual music. So I will repeat myself again. I would rather be able to tell the difference between the various concert grand pianos, their tuning, maybe even recognize the hands that are playing but more realistically remember which composer and movement it is I am hearing on a very mediocre system...

I would much rather that, then saying, that is a nice piano recording on the I robbed a bank/won the lottery/spent my kids college fund/cashed in my retirement fund/ grandioso supreme system...

So it does really boil down to sound vs music...

Then maybe forgo the system and only attend live performances or take up playing a musical instrument?

I’m a damn good Sax player, won awards and more, but I understand the difference between playing music and listening to music. I can also appreciate the quality of the recording and transfer itself.

As for those jazz records, if you bought the entire music matters jazz collection, you would have 175+ and be well on your way. I did. Best investment ever. No A2D in that process!

Music Matters: The Blue Note Reissue Series article @ All About Jazz


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[TheOctopus]

Then maybe forgo the system and only attend live performances or take up playing a musical instrument?

I’m a damn good Sax player, won awards and more, but I understand the difference between playing music and listening to music. I can also appreciate the quality of the recording and transfer itself.

As for those jazz records, if you bought the entire music matters jazz collection, you would have 175+ and be well on your way. I did. Best investment ever. No A2D in that process!

Music Matters: The Blue Note Reissue Series article @ All About Jazz


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Mike, I did have a nice collection of the Blue Note series. I used to subscribe to the individually numbered limited series through Elusive Disc. I stopped collecting after a while as it got old cleaning them and I actually preferred some XRCD versions that were available in terms of absolute sound quality. I got tired of tweaking my analog rig constantly while obsessing over sound. It took away from the listening experience itself.

As far as musical instruments, tried playing the guitar and piano but not enough musical talent to get great results. Practice did obviously improve things but not everyone is born to be a musician so I gave up a long time ago.

So I admire music but happen to have developed a level of tolerance for various sound qualities and zen like listening ability to enjoy the music itself, not the sound. As long as it doesn't offend my ear, I enjoy the music itself. I even enjoy music while driving my Jeep Wrangler Rubicon which has an Alpine system and a retractable soft top.... Far from high end system or the best acoustic environment but it still moves me in ways that are meaningful. I don't listen to the absence of quality but focus on the Jazz itself and life is good at those moments as I am rolling through the country side with the top open enjoying the scenery and my favorite music. I don't need a fancy system while sipping coffee with with my arm while the other is hanging out the side of the Jeep. Art Pepper's Alto-Sax, Coltrane's Tenor, velvety smooth Stan Getz, Coleman Hawkins serenading me with his big and breathy sax tone... Life is good indeed in those moment of much less than perfect acoustic reproduction of sound.

I can and do appreciate the passion of those seeking out and collecting media for their enjoyment. It is definitely a big part of the hobby and makes perfect sense. Have fun with it. Streaming opened up new horizons for me in the mean time. It is good to have so many choices these days.

 

[Randy Myers]

I put forth the proposition that to an audiophile quality in the music does indeed matter.

Be it refining our gear, be it finding a better version of our favorite music, whichever form of media one chooses to use to listen, quality in the music is what makes us tick.

I love listening to music, be it through my speakers, through my headphones with my portable at work, through my headphones with my system at home when my wife wants to watch TV (and I don't) in the living room, or in my car through the Burmester sound system. I love listening to music, but if the music sounds bad, is poor quality then I do not enjoy it. Many times I would rather not listen at all then listen to bad quality music.

To me this is what being an audiophile means.