Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?

a.wayne said:
This is incorrect it shows you everything you need to know about matching amp to load , what it will not show is what you will end up liking due to taste..


Regards
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Pretty much exactly what I said. It all boils down to personal taste and the sound you like. The numbers do not tell this. Many people including many reviewers have stated that on numerous occasions gear that does not test well sounds better.

A great example is something that happened in our audio club. One of our members (who writes for Stereophile actually) liked one particular brand of DAC and they had a shoot out with another that received very poor test numbers. Everyone but the reviewer very much preferred the model that tested poorly. From what I heard it became quite the heated exchange... :weird:
 
I’m sure the tested well had measurements showing issues, this will surface and show itself dependent on load and drive level with amplifiers ..



Regards
 
a.wayne said:
Based on the sensitivity of your Kef’s , you prefer the clipping characteristics of your SET over your T&A SS amps , understandable as Toobs clipping is more desirable ..
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I guess a point of opinion... I grew up when 50 WPC was considered quite high for quality amplifiers, and I had older Reference KEF's which were 84 db efficiency... It also comes down to use and listening habits... in my view more power does not mean better. I believe you are in then opposite camp. Unless someone is part of the 1% and can afford extreme amounts on their amplifiers then we would all own Class D amps. Shit, one of my friends builds award winning Class D amps and recently had me test his new prototype preamp, but I do not believe more is better in amplifiers and I completely disagree that I am listening to "clipping" in my amplifiers.

Both the Audio Mirror and the T+A are the cleanest most dynamic amps I have ever heard in my environment. I do have a fairly small listening area, but I still have to remind myself to turn it down, especially if my lovely bride has gone to bed...

I will leave it at that. I understand that you enjoy getting into pissing matches.... I will not :)...
 
Understand Completely,

I do understand plenty like clipity clipity sound , i do not, more power doesn't mean louder , it does mean full dynamic reach with proper timbre and control , anyway to each his own and do agree discussing it in a show me your toy forum is not appropriate and could look like a pissing match...

apologies ...



Regards
 
Randy any amp clips at some point and knowing when is paramount to achieving better sound
i have been forced to accept a lot of wrong in the past two years
yes if you like it is fine and should be accepted by all.
But one should learn and not dispose of knowledge when shared.
At one time I had big old krell mono blocks
over the years I sold them and liked my then new Aragon 08 better.
Guess my krells needed a re cap but had no clue lol.
My so one day a bud said hey try the 04 and I did it sounded
much better then the 08 a cap update and mod got me even more out of it.
But then I noticed shouting. It was clipping but hey I had no idea.
Fast foward a bit and I have 800 pound amps now. Funny I never knew how much of our music is great and how little is not.
 
Obviously I don't disagree, however I put forth the proposition that simply because I prefer the sound of an amplifier does not mean that I enjoy its "clipping" versus another amplifier. This assumes I am clipping the amps in the first place.

Instead I say that maybe, just maybe, 45 wpc can produce enough volume in my environment, with my speakers, at my preferred listening levels without clipping the amps. Therefore I am actually listening to the true sound of the amplifiers, and I prefer my SET amps. Just maybe I am actually enjoying the amps sound and not its "clipping" or its distortion.
 
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-r700-loudspeaker-specifications
randy this is your speakers correct ? If so how big is your room and at what distances do you sit ? At 90 dB per 3 feet for 1 watt that's pretty low for 45 watts.
Nit seems to me the love of set sound runs deep in those who use them. On other forums it becomes difficult to prove how in some setups it's not nearly enough. Dart has a meter on there amps show on passages the real needed amount of power in fast transient sounds. While your setup may sound fine to you. There most likely be changes in your room sound if you had amps that could allow for the real changes in sound pressure where they are needed.
Clipping is not just shouting it's also a lack of attack at key points.
Unless you put in as a trial a larger amp you most likely would not know. Lastly a bigger amp that is good in your system is needed so any larger amp is not what I meAn.
For music to grow we need many times the normal power. Based on 45 watts unless you play low and are close this would be there to hear. Some I have shown this play music that sounds good to them on there system n when I show them very dynamic music to play they don't get why it's good. This is an example of clipping too.
Before I bought the amps I have and yes my room and speakers are large I too did not get this. Things change when things add up correctly and I do love set amps too
 
Randy Myers said:
Obviously I don't disagree, however I put forth the proposition that simply because I prefer the sound of an amplifier does not mean that I enjoy its "clipping" versus another amplifier. This assumes I am clipping the amps in the first place.

Instead I say that maybe, just maybe, 45 wpc can produce enough volume in my environment, with my speakers, at my preferred listening levels without clipping the amps. Therefore I am actually listening to the true sound of the amplifiers, and I prefer my SET amps. Just maybe I am actually enjoying the amps sound and not its "clipping" or its distortion.
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Agree and no way trying to piss away your point .. :)


I'm only suggesting when selecting amplifiers most people tend to choose based on clipping characteristics, if you level match when comparing this will become most obvious ..

BTW i too do prefer the sound of a good SET over most on appropriate speakers ..


Regards
 
My room is small, I sit about 8'-9' (I measured it once but forget right now) away. The speakers are about 3' out from the wall. There are loft openings on both sides of the room so I am sure this must affect the sound.

I listen at modest levels. I have tried a lot more power; class D by both PS Audio and Wyred 4 Sound; class A/B, the Son of Ampzilla among others. All of these were in the 200 wpc+. I also have had several 100 wpc amps; McIntosh, my T+A, Goldmund Job, etc. I have also had lower powered amps; older tube ARC, Quick Silvers, etc., and a First Watt.

I enjoyed the sound of the First Watt but felt it probably would not have enough power for the long haul. I do feel my Audio Mirrors have plenty for me and I also have my T+A for the times I am in the mood for solid state :). Maybe I am old school, but 50-100 watts is a decent amount of power. Times have changed and I understand people have this lust for huge amounts of power in reserve. I believe if I am driving my amps to only a fraction of their capacities then they have plenty in reserve for the dynamics. Maybe this is simply my believe, but I am definitely in the school of thought that more is not always better and I believe quality is more important in my price level. If I could afford both I would not disagree with the opinions expressed here by others, but this hobby is way too crazy and most of us can't afford our dreams but get the best we can. :)
 
Anatta said:
You can check the link bellow to see how much power you need based on your listening distance and speakers (instal JBLTools on your smartphone to measure it). Your R700 give you 100dB max @ 9ft with 45W. 100dB is very loud.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
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My feelings exactly and thank you for the link. I do not have any measuring equipment (I might try the smart phone tool at some point but do not believe it is necessary for me). At 8' (which is what I think they actually are away from my listening position) they can get to 103.8db, as you said, very loud.

The system gets very loud, much more so then I would ever listen to. Even when club members are over and like to turn it up a bit the system can get to a point where it is hard to be in the room because of the volume. Way beyond my comfort levels :).
 
Anatta said:
You can check the link bellow to see how much power you need based on your listening distance and speakers (instal JBLTools on your smartphone to measure it). Your R700 give you 100dB max @ 9ft with 45W. 100dB is very loud.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
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Home made science bumkus , on high crest music 1-2 watt RMS will require 200-300 watts for dynamic peaks, figure on 200 watt at a min if using 1-2 watts, feel free to measure ..

His speakers are 87db @1watt/M he will easily clip his amps on peaks and most likely will be loud enuff in room at 2 watts RMS @ 3M

50 watts will be clip city at an avg output of 1 watt RMS

Regards
 
Randy Myers said:
My feelings exactly and thank you for the link. I do not have any measuring equipment (I might try the smart phone tool at some point but do not believe it is necessary for me). At 8' (which is what I think they actually are away from my listening position) they can get to 103.8db, as you said, very loud.

The system gets very loud, much more so then I would ever listen to. Even when club members are over and like to turn it up a bit the system can get to a point where it is hard to be in the room because of the volume. Way beyond my comfort levels :).
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Yes your system can go very loud with 3-5 watt RMS on low crest music loud , this is not an issue , so i do believe and agree with your Assessment, where we differ is on high crest music , Dynamic expression and timbre will disappear due to clipping .. this is where things like soft clipping , clip recovery etc. come into play with amplifiers ..


Regards
 
How do you know he clips the amps if you don't know his max SPL or are you talking out of your ass?

I listen @ 9ft from the speakers which are 86dB sensitive with peaks of 90-93dB @ the listening position. Max power I can use is 23W@8Ohm, 46@4Ohm etc. How do I know this? Because I know the gain of the amp and the max output voltage from the source that drives the amplifier; these two combined give no more than 23W @8Ohm.

But please do tell me how I need 200W.
 
a.wayne said:
Yes your system can go very loud with 3-5 watt RMS on low crest music loud , this is not an issue , so i do believe and agree with your Assessment, where we differ is on high crest music , Dynamic expression and timbre will disappear due to clipping .. this is where things like soft clipping , clip recovery etc. come into play with amplifiers ..
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I do not have any measurements or the like to back up my assertions so I guess I will simply say ok.

I guess none of us actually had equipment powerful enough to listened to good music until Bob Carver came along and started high power amplifiers with Phase Linear. I sold many of the Carver Cube when it first came out (one of the first reasonably priced 200 wpc amps) and honestly, I thought it sounded like crap and they used to break left and right. We seemed to get more of those coming in for repair then anything else we sold. I remember one actually popping and jumping right off the shelf in the sound room once... like it committed suicide :).
 
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