do i need a sub, or two,

Chops and Nicoff

> My concern is the bass response in that room considering where the speakers are located and just the sheer size and shape of that room.

The location of speakers was carefully considered and the place chosen means the speakers are well away from walls and corners. Also their location avoids the parabolic effect that the curved wall may have had on the speakers. The speakers neither face towards the parabolic focas point, nor directly away from it. These places would no doubt be disastrous - I'm sure you'd agree. If you have opened the plan of my listening room, may I sk where you would choose the place the sppeakers?

> I think that it is time for you to rethink your approach to subs and to DSP.
> In Post #3, Mike explains in good detail why he uses four (4!) subs to get the best out of his 2-channel system. My experience is similar to his.

I had been hoping for a follow up from Mike after seeing the plan of my room and his familiarity with Avantgarde speakers and the acoustic features of horn speakers. My own opionion is that my speakers are placed in the most suitable locations in this room and the nature of horns and the use of twin 12" drives in each of the AG's "subs" should probably obviate the need for more subs. No doubt they'd make a small difference, but I suspect it would be far from economically worthwhile.

But thanks for your views. Peter
 
Hear Here said:
Chops and Nicoff

> My concern is the bass response in that room considering where the speakers are located and just the sheer size and shape of that room.

...

... If you have opened the plan of my listening room, may I sk where you would choose the place the sppeakers?
Click to expand...

Answer: I would leave them where they are because they meet your current need for sound and aesthetics. HOWEVER, I would use DSP to optimize the sound.


...
My own opionion is that my speakers are placed in the most suitable locations in this room and the nature of horns and the use of twin 12" drives in each of the AG's "subs" should probably obviate the need for more subs. No doubt they'd make a small difference, but I suspect it would be far from economically worthwhile.
... Peter
Click to expand...

Sounds as if you do not follow what Mike said in his post about subs. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you sure cannot make it drink.
 
Hear Here said:
Chops and Nicoff

> My concern is the bass response in that room considering where the speakers are located and just the sheer size and shape of that room.

The location of speakers was carefully considered and the place chosen means the speakers are well away from walls and corners. Also their location avoids the parabolic effect that the curved wall may have had on the speakers. The speakers neither face towards the parabolic focas point, nor directly away from it. These places would no doubt be disastrous - I'm sure you'd agree. If you have opened the plan of my listening room, may I sk where you would choose the place the sppeakers?
Click to expand...

Again, I did not say anything about the location of the speakers. Like I said in my last post, I'm sure you're getting great sound in those locations and your listening seat as far as stereo imaging and staging is concerned. So with that said, I never suggested that you move the speakers elsewhere.

What I have said, a couple of times now, is that throwing a bunch of DSP at the speakers for the BASS only, DSP isn't going to help much in your room.

If that were my room, I would a couple of small-ish subs like REL, and place them nearfield. Locations such as along side or right behind your listening position.
 
nicoff said:
Sounds as if you do not follow what Mike said in his post about subs. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you sure cannot make it drink.
Click to expand...

If I was a horse and taken to water, I'd want to make my own decision as to whether to drink or not. Are you one who blindly goes along with what you’re told?

On the Mike question (and I'd love him to comment here), what he said in post #3 may apply to systems based on most speakers, but I can't see that his own Main Listening Room (that features Avantgarde Mezzo XD) uses any external subs.

Perhaps Mike's speakers, in common with my very similar ones, can be set up in such a way that subs don't need to be added to the room – his room or my room. The more speakers involved in a system, the more difficult it is to set them up properly, DSP or not.

Mike invited the highly respected Jim Smith to spend many hours setting up his Avantgardes and Mike's long and very informative description on this forum, made no mention of subs as far as I could see, nor DSP apart from what's in the bass amps of the speakers.

Mike’s Profile reads:
Main Listening Room: Avantgarde Duo Mezzo XD, Lampizator Big 7, Lumin U1, Berkeley Audio Design Alpha Reference DAC, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, Triode Corporation of Japan TRX-M300 monos, Pass XS150 dual chassis monos, Pass XS Preamp, Pass XS Phono, Living Voice OBX-RW, Air Tight ATM-3 monos, Air Tight ATC-2 Preamp, Air Tight ATE-2 Phonostage, Air Tight ATH-2REF SUT, VAC Renaissance preamp (modified), Kronos Pro with ZYX Universe Premium Cartridge, Technics 1500 R2R (modified by Jeff Jacobs), Lumin S1 Network Music Player, T+A PDP3000HV, Aurender N10, full Siltech loom including Royal Signature Prince Speaker Cables, Phono cable and AES/EBU, Siltech Classic Series IC's and PC's.

I can't see any subs there, though I'm certainly not sure amongst that huge number of other items! Perhaps there's no room left in his listening room for 4 big subs! More likely (I suspect and hope), Mike is happy with his excellent Avantgarde speakers without sub support. He seems to have carefully chosen speakers that offer the excitement of a live performance without muddying the waters with subs or DSP. If so, well done Mike – you’re the expert.
 
I my experience with rooms with lots of windows: I have found that windows affect "in a problematic way" the upper mids and highs ten times more than the bass. The lower the frequency the less the glass holds the bass in the room and it mostly just flows through the windows where the upper mids and highs reflect and cause problems. Because of this - windows don't really cause bass humps and suck outs. You basically hear whatever is coming out of the speaker. Since speakers are designed for more normal rooms this still can cause some problems but it does make speaker placement a lot easier. Some dampening for the highs has always been needed.

In your case with all those windows, I could see wanting subs to actually add to the bass so you can energize the room with bass. This is the same for PA sound reinforcement in a room verses the same system outdoors.

FYI - I do use subs along with my Duo Mezzo's. Avant Garden DSP makes it fairly easy to add a low bass sub and have it integrate.

In your room I would want to try MBL's. My gut says they would sound dang good in there.
 
Apologies for not responding sooner. It’s been a quite crazy since the Florida show and all the planning now for our three rooms at Axpona. 8 pairs of Clarisys sold and Block systems has also kept us busy!

Anyway, to answer your question: with the Duo Mezzo XD’s bass essentially being subs with sophisticated DSP, I did not need or want any additional subs. I was able to EQ out the bass nodes out of my room due to the sophistication of the bass of the Duo Mezzo XD’s.

When I switched to the MBL’s, I was still evaluating and playing with positioning when MBL introduced me to a customer ready to buy my entire MBL setup since she didn’t want to wait 14 months for a new one.

If I make a change again, would I want subs? Depends on the speaker design and how they play in my room. If it’s Duo GT’s? Likely not. If it’s Clarisys, likely not as I fear the subs couldn’t keep up with the fast ribbons and I don’t want to mix and match driver types. If it’s something else like S3’s or 802D4’s, then most likely.

With most traditional cone & dome speakers, I feel subs will be a big benefit in my system.

As for subs with AG’s, it just depends on the system and room. My friend Charlie has Trio XD’s and felt multiple pairs of the 231’s (traditional subs, not bass horns) scattered around his room were far more effective than a big stack of bass horns.


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Mike said:
Apologies for not responding sooner. It’s been a quite crazy since the Florida show and all the planning now for our three rooms at Axpona. 8 pairs of Clarisys sold and Block systems has also kept us busy!

Anyway, to answer your question: with the Duo Mezzo XD’s bass essentially being subs with sophisticated DSP, I did not need or want any additional subs. I was able to EQ out the bass nodes out of my room due to the sophistication of the bass of the Duo Mezzo XD’s.

When I switched to the MBL’s, I was still evaluating and playing with positioning when MBL introduced me to a customer ready to buy my entire MBL setup since she didn’t want to wait 14 months for a new one.

If I make a change again, would I want subs? Depends on the speaker design and how they play in my room. If it’s Duo GT’s? Likely not. If it’s Clarisys, likely not as I fear the subs couldn’t keep up with the fast ribbons and I don’t want to mix and match driver types. If it’s something else like S3’s or 802D4’s, then most likely.

With most traditional cone & dome speakers, I feel subs will be a big benefit in my system.

As for subs with AG’s, it just depends on the system and room. My friend Charlie has Trio XD’s and felt multiple pairs of the 231’s (traditional subs, not bass horns) scattered around his room were far more effective than a big stack of bass horns.


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Thanks you Mike for your constructive and learned advice - much appreciated. We are on the same wavelength regarding Avantgarde's large speakers and their need (or not) for additional subs. You have had the benefit of Jim Smith helping to fine tune your system - I'm envious as I can't ask Jim to jump on a plane and cross the Atlantic to help with mine! I've not heard of any such UK based expert, but I'm hoping some fellow AG owner may step forward to help, although I'm very pleased with the sound I'm presently hearing. Peter
 
the professor said:
In your room I would want to try MBL's. My gut says they would sound dang good in there.
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Jock - Many thanks for your observations and good to hear from a fellow AG user. You're absolutely right that in theory MBL or other first-class omnis should be the ideal type of speaker for my room, but I recently visited dealers for both MBL and German Physics. Both offer first class omnis and the showroom demos were educational in 2 ways. Yes, their sweet spot is vast compared with AG's (or any horns for that matter), but they had one real disadvantage compared with the AGs. Their imaging was nowhere near as accurate and this feature is one I particularly wouldn't want to lose. To be able to listen to music, eyes closed, and to point unambiguously at each instrument or singer (as one often can at live performances) is something I'd not want to lose, or even have significantly diminished.

I've been playing with the idea of getting a couple of German Physics' DDD units (PQS-100) and devise a system whereby the AG's subs are used to provide bass for either the AG's horns as normal, or (if I'm spending time in areas behind the speakers), the DDDs to provide the rest. The difference in sensitivity is huge so it's not a simple exercise - but might be fun to work on! Peter
 
Mike said:
I was able to EQ out the bass nodes out of my room due to the sophistication of the bass of the Duo Mezzo XD’s.
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Mike, were these room modes (bass nodes) peaks or nulls?

I'm asking because from my own experiences over the years, the only way to solve (or reduce) nulls is to physically move the subwoofer(s) to help flatten out or eliminate that null (or somehow change the dimensions of the room). Adding DSP/EQ to reduce a null on its own will not work and in fact makes things worse, not to mention adding a lot more stress to the amp/driver attempting to do so.

If the bass nodes that you were able to "EQ out of your room" were peaks, that makes a lot more sense.
 
chops said:
Mike, were these room modes (bass nodes) peaks or nulls?

I'm asking because from my own experiences over the years, the only way to solve (or reduce) nulls is to physically move the subwoofer(s) to help flatten out or eliminate that null (or somehow change the dimensions of the room). Adding DSP/EQ to reduce a null on its own will not work and in fact makes things worse, not to mention adding a lot more stress to the amp/driver attempting to do so.

If the bass nodes that you were able to "EQ out of your room" were peaks, that makes a lot more sense.
Click to expand...

Peaks. 73hz was the worst.


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