do i need a sub, or two,

G

greystoke4

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Nottingham UK
Hi as some might know ive just bought Marten quintet Dimond speakers, maybe the last ounce of low end is missing, i have a friend who will sell me a pair of Rell T7X subs for £800, less then half price, do i need them, and do i want them, i know they bring more to the party than base, but do i want my room to look like a hifi showroom, plus i will have to get them sprayed white to match my speakers, mike do i need them at this price, and will they make a quality difference , cheers andy will they improve my sound, :huh::huh:
thanks andy
 
I'm a bit anti-sub in principle and would always advocate buying main speakers that can deliver the bass you need in the first place, for (amongst other reasons) the "clutter" factor you mention.

I note that the speakers you're using have relatively small drivers (7 1/2"), though a number of them. With a budget of £27K list price, I think there are lots of great speakers that can deliver good bass. My own speakers (bought late 2020 with a generous dealer discount) cost around £21K and offer stupendous bass from their twin 12" drivers.

If good deep bass is required (and it should be at this sort of price), I think I'd have gone for speakers with big bass drivers or thereabouts. I've never craved more bass than my main speakers can deliver and they've generally had twin 10", or most recently twin 12" drivers. My first "proper" speakers (from the 1960s) had a 15" bass driver but of course drivers have hugely improved since those days. Big drivers still deliver bass in a far more "relaxed" way than smaller ones.

If your're ever down towards the south coast, I'd welcome a visit and could offer an afternoon of listening - and a glass or two of something! Peter
 
greystoke4 said:
Hi as some might know ive just bought Marten quintet speakers, maybe the last ounce of low end is missing, i have a friend who will sell me a pair of Rell T7X subs for £800, less then half price, do i need them, and do i want them, i know they bring more to the party than base, but do i want my room to look like a hifi showroom, plus i will have to get them sprayed white to match my speakers, mike do i need them at this price, and will they make a quality difference , cheers andy will they improve my sound, :huh::huh:
thanks andy
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Andy, the biggest misnomer is that people think subs are just for “bass”. The biggest effect of multiple subs is to even out room nodes. I have four giant B&W DB1D’s in a 14 x 20 room. NOT for bass, but because my room is so challenging with respect to bass nodes. Four subs even out the bass in my room. Two subs got me 90% of the way there, but four got me 100% of the way there. Would a different TYPE of speaker change things? Perhaps….but with a traditional speaker, this is what is needed in my room.


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Yes, you do need a pair of subs :), but with these Martens - you need better subs than T/7x.
 
I agree with both Mike and Delija.

Of course "need" is probably not the right word, but 2 or more properly setup will make your system better. Don't get just one tho. Definitely get them in pairs.
 
I run a pair or REL G1’s in stereo in my space for the exact reason Mike said earlier in the thread. In fact they only cut in at 35Hz and it just smoothed the room out wonderfully.

My speakers measure (in room) to -6 db at 30 hz. I’m not sure what or how the REL subs are sloped as they cut out but set at 35 to cross into the mains I’m now flat to 28 hz . And I believe that’s the best my speaker/sub/room will allow without another spectacular hit of money thrown at it

It doesn’t “boost” the bass either it has more of an effect of ( for example) giving far better venue information on live recordings and the spacial cues are greatly enhanced

I think that the question posed by the OP is answered correctly as yes you should have two subs… but …. Not if the room or spouse will allow them to be where they need to be for a proper integration.

My 2cents
 
greystoke4 said:
Hi as some might know ive just bought Marten quintet Dimond speakers, maybe the last ounce of low end is missing, i have a friend who will sell me a pair of Rell T7X subs for £800, less then half price, do i need them, and do i want them, i know they bring more to the party than base, but do i want my room to look like a hifi showroom, plus i will have to get them sprayed white to match my speakers, mike do i need them at this price, and will they make a quality difference , cheers andy will they improve my sound, :huh::huh:
thanks andy
Click to expand...


I have heard some very good things about BK Electronics (ex REL guys).
Their prices are very reasonable and they are relatively local to you (in Essex).
You should be able to get multiple subs without too much cost if you would like to experiment.

I am recent convert to the sub woofer club having recently added a JL Audio sub to my stereo setup.
It's amazing how much subs add to the overall presentation - just adds meat to the sound presentation.


.
 
Subs have pros and cons. They will improve your room SQ but you have to invest the time to understand how to do that. While many of us may have ideas on how to help you integrate them, you will be the judge and jury.

You can’t just plunk them down in your room next to your main speakers and be done. Some experimentation (time & patience) will be needed to get them to do their best on your room.
 
Mike said:
Andy, the biggest misnomer is that people think subs are just for “bass”. The biggest effect of multiple subs is to even out room nodes. I have four giant B&W DB1D’s in a 14 x 20 room. NOT for bass, but because my room is so challenging with respect to bass nodes. Four subs even out the bass in my room. Two subs got me 90% of the way there, but four got me 100% of the way there. Would a different TYPE of speaker change things? Perhaps….but with a traditional speaker, this is what is needed in my room.


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Click to expand...

Interesting. I have Avantgarde Duo XD speakers and wonder if you would advocate a couple of subs to deal with room nodes or to reinforce the bass.

If you thought your room has problems with acoustics, I wonder how you'd deal with mine - sketch below.

The acoustics when I moved in were apalling but, in my opinion, the addition of an area of carpeting, more soft furnishing and curtains (never closed) has had sufficient influence on the acoustics that subs are probably not required. Would you expect this room to be significantly improved with a pair or two of subs? And what subs would you recommend with AGs? Thanks. Peter

View attachment Plan - 112 Living Room.pdf
20210708_185716.jpg
 
I know very little on room acoustics, but I don't understand how carpet and a sofa are going to affect sub level frequencies.
Appears your issue would be mid range voices getting smudged by reflection. Great room and view, btw.
 
Smile said:
I know very little on room acoustics, but I don't understand how carpet and a sofa are going to affect sub level frequencies.
Appears your issue would be mid range voices getting smudged by reflection. Great room and view, btw.
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Yes, when I first moved into this new-build there was an echo and other acoustic problems, but the carpets, etc have made a huge difference. With horn speakers, it seems that room problems are less emphasised than with other types. I had Martin Logan 13As here for a while and they performed poorly - because of the room's semi-circular shape and no rear wall behind them.

With the right choice of speaker type, careful setting up and the room treatment (by way of carpets, etc), I'm pretty happy that I don't needs subs. I'm not clever enough to take advantage of the XD software that may further improve sound quality. I'd like to find a local audio tuning expert who could help me with this. Unfortunately Jim Smith is thousands of miles away! Peter
 
Hear Here said:
room treatment (by way of carpets, etc), I'm pretty happy that I don't needs subs
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Echo and reflective issues, yes, the carpet and curtains may have helped some, but did absolutely nothing for the bass issues that room has.

And the short answer... YES, your room would definitely benefit from having several properly set up subwoofers. I'm 100% certain Jim Smith would agree with us.
 
Mike said:
Andy, the biggest misnomer is that people think subs are just for “bass”. The biggest effect of multiple subs is to even out room nodes. I have four giant B&W DB1D’s in a 14 x 20 room. NOT for bass, but because my room is so challenging with respect to bass nodes. Four subs even out the bass in my room. Two subs got me 90% of the way there, but four got me 100% of the way there. Would a different TYPE of speaker change things? Perhaps….but with a traditional speaker, this is what is needed in my room.


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Click to expand...

Agree 110%!

I preach this all the time to people. I'm glad you said it this time.
 
nicoff said:
Your setting is beautiful. Assuming that you listen to digital, because of the geometry of the room and aesthetic considerations, you might want to explore DSP if you haven't already.
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Ha! Along with subs, DSP room correction is something I work hard to avoid the need for.

My current amp has Dirac Live built in and previous ones have had RoomPerfect (Lyngdorf) and MARS (Micromega). In all cases, although the bass may be slightly flatter when viewed on a frequency plot, the problem has always been that top end sparkle is diminished. Now the fact that these DSPs only ADJUST the bass (Dirac is only sub 500Hz), how can this be? Answer (my theory, yet to be demolished) is related to the letters S and P in DSP - Signal and Processor. The less processing a signal is subjected to, the better it survives on its journey towards the speakers. With these full-range amps, the entire signal is subjected to the processor, even the top end. That's why I avoid DSP in full-range amps. Also the end result, though audibly “different”, never sounds "better". Best left to the AV guys or those with multiple speakers where manual setting up becomes increasingly a specialist job.

With my speakers (Avantgarde Duo XDs) and ones I tried a while back (Martin Logan 13As) their active bass amps have DSP built in, leaving the rest of the un-DSP'd signal to reach the speakers unmolested. Only the bass is processed. As I mentioned earlier, I've not really tried to apply this XD filter. It's not as simple as Dirac's auto-set option where taking microphone readings and clicking "store" get the correction filter squirted directly into the amp – job done. XD is a completely manual system where the starting base is a straight line, you take independent microphone readings with REW or similar and adjust the straight line to compensate for the measured inaccuracies. Peter
 
Hear Here said:
Ha! Along with subs, DSP room correction is something I work hard to avoid the need for.
Click to expand...

Well that tells it all right there.

Even if you know your system/room would benefit from using subwoofers (and they would improve the system/room), you force yourself to refuse using them. No one can help you there...

And it doesn't matter how much DSP you throw at the bass section of your horns or Martin Logan's you had, those speakers are nowhere near in the right locations for any kind of proper bass reproduction.
 
Hear Here said:
Ha! Along with subs, DSP room correction is something I work hard to avoid the need for.

My current amp has Dirac Live built in and previous ones have had RoomPerfect (Lyngdorf) and MARS (Micromega). In all cases, although the bass may be slightly flatter when viewed on a frequency plot, the problem has always been that top end sparkle is diminished. Now the fact that these DSPs only ADJUST the bass (Dirac is only sub 500Hz), how can this be? Answer (my theory, yet to be demolished) is related to the letters S and P in DSP - Signal and Processor. The less processing a signal is subjected to, the better it survives on its journey towards the speakers. With these full-range amps, the entire signal is subjected to the processor, even the top end. That's why I avoid DSP in full-range amps. Also the end result, though audibly “different”, never sounds "better". Best left to the AV guys or those with multiple speakers where manual setting up becomes increasingly a specialist job.

With my speakers (Avantgarde Duo XDs) and ones I tried a while back (Martin Logan 13As) their active bass amps have DSP built in, leaving the rest of the un-DSP'd signal to reach the speakers unmolested. Only the bass is processed. As I mentioned earlier, I've not really tried to apply this XD filter. It's not as simple as Dirac's auto-set option where taking microphone readings and clicking "store" get the correction filter squirted directly into the amp – job done. XD is a completely manual system where the starting base is a straight line, you take independent microphone readings with REW or similar and adjust the straight line to compensate for the measured inaccuracies. Peter
Click to expand...

I think that it is time for you to rethink your approach to subs and to DSP.

In Post #3, Mike explains in good detail why he uses four (4!) subs to get the best out of his 2-channel system. My experience is similar to his.

With regards to DSP, your Avantgarde Duo XD comes with DSP capabilities. In other words, Avantgarde must have decided that the speaker can sound better with DSP and have included it with their speakers!

Looking at your room dimensions (curved walls, open space, reflective glass everywhere), I would think that DSP would be a good addition to the system. I am familiar with a few black-box room correction systems out there. I got the best results by taking room measurements (REW) and sending them to an expert to create the filters. The filters can be tweaked/refined in ways that those black-box systems will not allow you to. If you use Roon, for example, you can take the measurements (they can show you how to do that) and have the experts develop the DSP filters for you. Then you can try and have them adjust the filters to your liking. I have used an outfit in France (English - Home Audio Fidelity) with excellent results.
 
chops said:
Well that tells it all right there.
Even if you know your system/room would benefit from using subwoofers (and they would improve the system/room), you force yourself to refuse using them. No one can help you there...

And it doesn't matter how much DSP you through at the bass section of your horns or Martin Logan's you had, those speakers are nowhere near in the right locations for any kind of proper bass reproduction.
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Please don't be so dismissive unless you have heard the system in my room. I wouldn't dream of thrashing your system or set up without having heard it.

The room is not a dedicated music room, it is my living room and speakers are placed in as good a spot as they can be in this odd-shaped room. There are no side walls or corners close by to spoil the sound, Panels wouldn't be happy in that position, hence the MLs were quickly ditched. However horns are much more room tolerant and, after considerable attention to furnishings, they now sound very good.

Of course I have tried DSP room correction systems and results have been less satisfactory than without a filter. I have no doubt that the XD DSP within the bass amps would improve the sound, but I've not yet spent enough time on this project. I'd prefer to get a specialist with Avantgarde expertise to visit and set up a good filter.

If I had your panel speakers in my room, I agree that they would sound pretty dire without DSP and a bunch of subs, and judging from my ML experiments, they'd still seriously disappoint compared with the AGs. The horns are very happy in the locations they are placed. However, as always with horns, the sound behind the speakers (my dining and kitchen areas) is far from great and panels (or better still probably omnis) would be better when listening in these areas. However, as the sound at my listening position is so excellent, I can live with less good sound when behind the speakers.
 
Hear Here said:
Please don't be so dismissive unless you have heard the system in my room. I wouldn't dream of thrashing your system or set up without having heard it.
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I'm not thrashing anyone or their system. Like you, I wouldn't do that.

And yes, I have no doubt you're getting great sound with the horns in that room from about 100 Hz on up. My concern is the bass response in that room considering where the speakers are located and just the sheer size and shape of that room.

As you said, I haven't heard it, so I don't know for sure.

I'm just going based off of past experiences in a large number of rooms and loudspeaker locations. Some of which I have gone to extremes just to see for myself what the outcome was. 99.5% of the time, they were not very favorable for good bass response.
 
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