digital backend options

I have tried both Roon up-sampling (which I never was very impressed with) and HQPlayer. To me HQPlayer is the finest playback engine available. A good PC is needed, of course. Helping Nico configure a new built PC from the original boutique custom PC manufacture, I know you can get an amazing Windows 10 machine, with all the power you need and built as good as any PC you will ever see, for about $3k.

I up-sample everything I play to 24.6 (DSD512 at 48k base). Even standard CD rips sound amazing. I also believe that the better the source (including higher resolution, i.e. DSD256 files) sound better even when up-sampled to 24.6 Mhz.

This is what the T+A DAC 8 DSD was created to do. The gentleman who wrote the Stereophile review is a member of our local Audio Club. He is personally not a big fan of DSD, but he absolutely loved the T+A DAC.
 
Randy Myers said:
I have tried both Roon up-sampling (which I never was very impressed with) and HQPlayer. To me HQPlayer is the finest playback engine available. A good PC is needed, of course. Helping Nico configure a new built PC from the original boutique custom PC manufacture, I know you can get an amazing Windows 10 machine, with all the power you need and built as good as any PC you will ever see, for about $3k.

I up-sample everything I play to 24.6 (DSD512 at 48k base). Even standard CD rips sound amazing. I also believe that the better the source (including higher resolution, i.e. DSD256 files) sound better even when up-sampled to 24.6 Mhz.

This is what the T+A DAC 8 DSD was created to do. The gentleman who wrote the Stereophile review is a member of our local Audio Club. He is personally not a big fan of DSD, but he absolutely loved the T+A DAC.
Click to expand...


You can build it for less than $3K.

I highly recommend a silent mid tower case like this Fractal Design Define R5. Mine is very quiet. I picked one up on sale for $80. They are insulated, well laid out and have slide out removable dust filter screens that can be washed or vacuumed. The buttons are on the top front edge. The interior is laid out great with slide out drive trays. It is all metal and sturdy.


http://www.fractal-design.com/home/product/cases/define-series/define-r5-black.

I also recommend Noctua case fans as they are whisper quiet.

https://www.quietpcusa.com/Noctua-Fans.aspx

You can download Win 10 pro for free. You just can't register it and update it which is no big deal if it is used only for audio.
 
Of course you can build one for a whole lot less. Not everyone can build and configure a PC to do the job. I could, but I prefer having Falcon build the machine for me.

Falcon has been doing it so long and have such a relationship with most of the parts manufactures that they actually do have an inside track, so to speak. At times they have gotten higher grade, sort of the pick of the crop, so to speak, parts from manufactures (actually quite often). Therefore, many times they actually do utilize a higher grade part (not all parts sold are exactly the same, especially computer parts, even with the same model number).

When I had a small issue with graphics on a new machine I got for my wife a couple years ago (very minor with an easy work around), the video card manufacture literally created updated firmware for them to address the small issue (in less then a week). They also make some of the best custom cases.

So yes, you can build a good machine for less. But I can assure you, from personal experience; the machine I build will not be as good as the machine that is built by Falcon, but, as we both understand, at what cost.
 
I agree with Randy here about the Falcon machine.

And yes a person with good computer knowledgeable can build a cheaper machine. But some folks (including me) prefer to pay a bit more and leave the build stuff to others who will warrant and stand behind their product. From my own perspective, I am trying not to be penny wise and dollar foolish.
 
Of course, not every one has the knowledge and experience to build a computer from scratch. I have built several custom computers and bought 2 custom computers. Mine have always been better and cheaper with better parts. I wasn't penny pinching but I also did not want to spend $2K or 3K more either. All the parts come with warranties so if any thing breaks, it just gets replaced. Also, no need for a video card in an audio computer, it just creates more electronic and fan noise.

It looks like Falcon makes some very nice computers. It should do well. I would still research the power supplies that they offer and look for low ripple. It makes a world of difference in sound. Also make sure that they use quiet fans because if they spin up they could be loud but I suspect they any fans that they do use are low decibel, 15db or lower.:)
 
Mechnutt said:
....
Also, no need for a video card in an audio computer, it just creates more electronic and fan noise.
....
Click to expand...

I take it that you are not aware that in HQPlayer the main processor works in tandem with Nvidia Cuda video cards to assist in the handling of processor intensive tasks like when using poly-sinc filters. They work beautifully together in my Falcon machine with absolutely no noise.
 
thanks for all the technical info here! i think a dedicated server is definitely the way to go... guess i need to investigate HPQ more. providing for CUDA processing capabilities indicates HQP must certainly need more processing power than most "off-the-shelf" audio servers for intensive operations such as dsd512 upsampling and the like.

i need to have a component-sized server rather than a tower and fanless is pretty much a requirement -- any suggestions here?

Randy Myers said:
I have tried both Roon up-sampling (which I never was very impressed with) and HQPlayer. To me HQPlayer is the finest playback engine available. A good PC is needed...
Click to expand...

randy - do you remember which release of roon you tried the upsampling? i have read that v1.3 was similarly not liked as well as HPQ, however, v1.4 and now v1.5 significantly improved their dsp engine.
 
I have not tried using Roon to upsample with the most recent Roon release. I did with other versions. It was not that I thought it was close, actually I thought not up-sampling with Roon sounded better then when up-sampling. HQPlayer, to my ears, simply sounds better. After using HQPlayer I would have a hard time using any other playback engine, and yes, I love Roon, in fact I have a lifetime subscription. I will continue using Roon feeding into HQPlayer. It truly is the best of both worlds, in my view.
 
I'm not trying to pee on anybody's party here but I'd like to throw in two cents. I have built computers myself for personal use at home. They are very fast and work excellent at all the document work I want to do. They are not however machines biuilt for audio purposes. I have spoken pretty extensively with some repair reps and manufacturers of computer-based audio. They are extremely selective of motherboards and ram that they use to build machines with. They vary greatly in how they are designed and some create a whole lot more noise than others that is detrimental to audio quality.

They are all hypersensitive about the power supplies used in the machines. There are also very sensitive about where those power supplies are located and isolated from other components. They are also very sensitive about the case itself and its ability to act as a dampening device as well as shielding.

You can build a great home computer but building a great music server is another thing. I'm sure you can make something that sounds pretty darn decent, but it will fall short of the production models by Mojo, Innuos, Antipodes, Sonore, Lumin etc.

Go to Computer Audiophile and read the threads on a crowd funded motherboard. It will give some perspective on what they are considering. Also read a novel way to massively improve sound quality. That will give a good idea of all the components used for optimum sound. Ir's a hard read. Takes a few weeks to get an understanding of what computer audio is about and another few weeks to figure out how you want to configure your system.

If you do more research, you will make less mistakes and end up with a much better music source. By the way, my comment above about you building something decent is after you have done the reading.
 
nicoff said:
I take it that you are not aware that in HQPlayer the main processor works in tandem with Nvidia Cuda video cards to assist in the handling of processor intensive tasks like when using poly-sinc filters. They work beautifully together in my Falcon machine with absolutely no noise.
Click to expand...

How do you know that it is not adding noise? Have you tried turning it off and using the CPU's graphic's. With the right newer multicore processor, you will not need CUDA from what I understand.


I am aware of HQP and that it can use CUDA. CUDA is not really necessary if you have the correct CPU. Why spend the money on a high end GPU that will add electronic noise and fan noise (the higher end, faster GPU's use 2-3 fans per card) when you can upgrade the CPU and use 16gb of extreme fast memory. Get a 12 core 8th gen I7 CPU. You need a very fast GPU to really take advantage of CUDA. You will also need a much larger power supply to run the better GPU's. CUDA is not very useful with middle of the road GPU's. Besides, you can always add a Video card later as they are pretty much plug and play. It is much harder to add a CPU.

When building an audio computer, less electronics is better for a quieter system.

Kingrex, you are right about what you say about building an audio computer. However, there are now MOBO's that use better caps like panasonic that are made for audio. Getting the right power supply with low ripple and fan noise is also very important. Using a sound insulated computer case with excellent cooling also a must. Shielded SATA cables and cable routing is important as well. The new M.2 SSD's are nice since they eliminate SATA cables.

When I first fired up my desktop audio computer, it sounded like I had a new system, the sound was that much better compared to my audio laptop. I am not so sure that I could improve the sound much except for adding an audio powercord.

However, having a company build your computer is a nice way to go if you can't or don't want to do it yourself. But you have to keep in mind, many companies are making custom computers for high end gaming, not audio. I enjoy building computers and electronic gear and have fun doing it.
 
I agree with some of your statements. However I do put forth the proposition that some highly manufactured PCs can and do not only compete, but out perform many of the custom "music server" manufactures. In fact, my Tiki actually uses the exact same motherboard, however a higher grade version, then what was used by the best "music server" manufactures at the time. Also, these manufactures usually use lower grade other parts, drives, RAM, CPU, etc.

Also, extreme high end manufactures such as Falcon use only Gold Standard, best of the best, power supplies, for example. Yes, a cheaply made home built PC may not be able to compete, but there are custom built computers that compete and actually out perform these "music servers".

Also, most of the dedicated "music servers" are not powerful enough to run extreme software, such as HQPlayer. just saying....

And yes, you can get dedicated "music servers" that do complete, and maybe even exceed PCs such as the Falcons, but then you are in the stratosphere in price... like many times more.

BTW- with HQPlayer you are not using the "Graphics" in the Nvidia cards (I do not even have a keyboard, mouse, or monitor attached to my PC music server); HQPlayer can use the added processing power of the thousands of Cuda cores to off load some of the processing from the CPU. I also know it does not add any "noise", because I actually used mine with the Nvidia card removed for quite some time and then reinstalled it. I did not notice any additional "noise" after putting the card back in the machine. I also never hear any fan noise when listening to music, unless my ear was right next to the computer, literally my ears right in the rack.

The only fan noise I do hear is when annoying fans that come on occasionally in my Surface that I use as a Roon Controller. I do have a Samsung tablet; I just prefer the screen and touch control on my Surface then either the Android or iPad tablets that I have tried. I might add, the iPads are by far my least favorite Roon controller, and I have tried them all.
 
Randy Myers said:
I agree with some of your statements. However I do put forth the proposition that some highly manufactured PCs can and do not only compete, but out perform many of the custom "music server" manufactures. In fact, my Tiki actually uses the exact same motherboard, however a higher grade version, then what was used by the best "music server" manufactures at the time. Also, these manufactures usually use lower grade other parts, drives, RAM, CPU, etc.

Also, extreme high end manufactures such as Falcon use only Gold Standard, best of the best, power supplies, for example. Yes, a cheaply made home built PC may not be able to compete, but there are custom built computers that compete and actually out perform these "music servers".

Also, most of the dedicated "music servers" are not powerful enough to run extreme software, such as HQPlayer. just saying....

And yes, you can get dedicated "music servers" that do complete, and maybe even exceed PCs such as the Falcons, but then you are in the stratosphere in price... like many times more.

BTW- with HQPlayer you are not using the "Graphics" in the Nvidia cards (I do not even have a keyboard, mouse, or monitor attached to my PC music server); HQPlayer can use the added processing power of the thousands of Cuda cores to off load some of the processing from the CPU. I also know it does not add any "noise", because I actually used mine with the Nvidia card removed for quite some time and then reinstalled it. I did not notice any additional "noise" after putting the card back in the machine. I just never hear any fan noise when listening to music.

The only fan noise I do hear is when annoying fans that come on occasionally in my Surface that I use as a controller. I do have a Samsung tablet; I just prefer the screen and touch control on my Surface then either the Android or iPad tablets that I have tried. I might add, the iPads are by far my least favorite Roon controller, and I have tried them all.
Click to expand...

And yes, you can get dedicated "music servers" that do complete, and maybe even exceed PCs such as the Falcons, but then you are in the stratosphere in price... like many times more.
Click to expand...
I guess it all comes down to the commitment in the hobby vs enjoying what you have with the funds a person has already dedicated to the hobby and the possibility of actually hearing any changes from a dedicated $5000 + server vs a purpose built computer.
 
Randy, I am aware that when using CUDA, you are not using it for video but you are still using the GPU to do the processing. Whether it creates audible electronic noise is debatable. Less is more in my book. I also run my computer without a mouse, keyboard and monitor. I remote in using Windows Remote Desktop through a tablet or laptop. Again, CUDA is not necessary with the right CPU and memory.

Also, just because Falcon is using high end power supplies does not mean they have low ripple. It means that they will be reliable and be able to deliver the promised power under load and remain stable. They will also have better cooling. They will have better capacitors.

An audio computer does not need more than 500 watts. More power means more EMI and RF. However, with that being said, I would suspect that the higher end PS's have lower ripple and may be better shielded but you would have to look at the spec's and how they are built. I went with a Corsair RM550x PS because of its features, low noise fan, electronic specs and pro review measurements.

I also would suspect my computer to outperform most dedicated music servers. And I have 9 TB's of storage for 6 TB's of music and counting.
 
Agreed Chris... recently I have helped a couple AS members configure custom built PCs. Both are going with Falcon Northwest Tiki's (compact, much more similar physically to an audio component). Both came in at about $3000, and both are absolutely smoking machines. After all, if built with quality and performance in mind, what is really the difference between a gaming PC and a Music Server... so long as the basics are covered... high end latest greatest CPU, fast abundant RAM (and lots of it), Gold Standard best of the best power supply, isolated casing (none are better than Falcon), M.2 SSD drives, super high end motherboards, high end Nvidia cards... etc... All else being equal, a super high end Gaming PC and a super high end Music Server functionally are exactly the same.
 
Mechnutt said:
Randy, I am aware that when using CUDA, you are not using it for video but you are still using the GPU to do the processing. Whether it creates audible electronic noise is debatable. Less is more in my book. I also run my computer without a mouse, keyboard and monitor. I remote in using Windows Remote Desktop through a tablet or laptop. Again, CUDA is not necessary with the right CPU and memory.

Also, just because Falcon is using high end power supplies does not mean they have low ripple. It means that they will be reliable and be able to deliver the promised power under load and remain stable. They will also have better cooling. They will have better capacitors.

An audio computer does not need more than 500 watts. More power means more EMI and RF. However, with that being said, I would suspect that the higher end PS's have lower ripple and may be better shielded but you would have to look at the spec's and how they are built. I went with a Corsair RM550x PS because of its features, low noise fan, electronic specs and pro review measurements.

I also would suspect my computer to outperform most dedicated music servers. And I have 9 TB's of storage for 6 TB's of music and counting.
Click to expand...

Nice... and it sounds like we really are pretty much in agreement. I know that Falcon has used Corsair in the past. I used to be a huge Corsair fan, but over several years I have become less of a fan.

Falcon now uses Silverstone, low noise, gold standard power supplies. I have been a fan of Silverstone for a number of years.
 
Ok, I should not say a business can build a better server than you can. My friend Alrainbow builds all his and has been my mentor of mine for a while now. I have modified my server to some degree with Software and minor hardware upgrades. What I can say is, I believe the basic skeleton being the hardware and PS are vital to the sound. I love the Mojo products as Ben has been perfecting his power supplies for over 20 years. Under Al's tutelage I made a duel boot for my server, loaded win server 2016, added AO, Roon and HQ player. I also did many bios alterations.

I look at this unit as the 3rd server I have owned. I bought a Core Audio server about 5 years ago. It was a computer with a good linear PS outputting spdif to my DAC. At the time it was bettering the Modded Apple units. It was good. It always performed as well as my Stock Rega RP6 with the Exact cartridge.

That server died when I tried to defrag the SS drive. Whoops. Burned up the PS. I then bought the Mojo CAT server. That server via spdif was playing even with my now modded Rega RP6 with all Groove tracer parts as well as a remote mounted motor and Denon 103 R in a Midas aluminum headshell.

Then with the help of Al I made the duel boot and software changes. My server via usb now stomped the crap out of my upgraded RP6. It actually became a tool to judge what was wrong with my vinyl. It is so good at showing you bloat, noise, frequency role off etc in my vinyl. It is just the most musical source.

This caused me to scrap my TT. I reused the motor and groove tracer parts. I have a Vertere arm and built the plinth and base out of Acrylic since Vertere uses as such in their table. I also sent the cartridge to the soundsmith to be rebuilt. My TT is very nice now. It voices very well, but my digital front end has better sound staging, pitch stability and frequency extension.

What I am saying is if you can sit your server in front of $10K in vinyl and better it, then you built a good digital front end. If you like the vinyl better, there is still room to improve.

To quote the overused statement, you don't know the noise is there till it's gone. I keep experiencing this with digital as I learn and tweak. Purchasing the Linear Solution Ethernet switch showed me I still had noise with my internal drives with isolated PS. I now get better sound from my NAS than internal storage. Either the NAS or internal are still better than Tidal, but Tidal still out performs my vinyl. Not by much and not on all music. Some vinyl I have is just right and I can't find copies on Tidal that better them. I might go so far as to say 85 % to 90% of my material is better on my digital. 10% to 15% is better on my vinyl. My cartridge has been set up by a professional that came to my house.

Lastly, I am only getting about 70% of what I could from my server according to Mojo. I have some upgrades to do. I never had the Femto USB card with isolated PS installed. I also have the old case and motherboard. The new motherboard used 6 watts of power so it is very quiet. The upgrade also utilizes Msata hard drives. Right on the motherboard. Anyone can purchase these parts, but Mojo builds a custom case to fit the parts, isolate the parts and provides discrete PS to multiple components in the unit. That is probably the hardest part for any home build. How good is the PS and how many HD Plex PS Voltage regulators are you installing. How short are your leads. How good and how long is the wire in your PS. You probably need a minimum of 2 HD plex PS to build a really good server. They are $500 each. You also need a couple regulators. To really go all out and up-sample, you should be using 2 machines. One to do the work and the other to be the endpoint and pass the signal to the DAC. That is how Al is doing it. Sure you can use 1, but you won't know the noise is gone till it's gone. I don't upsample. I do use Roon Core so I operate my machine remote. I would ditch the graphics card but I need it to do internal work with the drives. Redbook is really pretty good. I do no like what I hear when I upsample in HQ player or Roon. Its a little flat and veiled on my machine. Without it the sound is very open, airy and alive. With Roon core and remote control it gets more rich and full. More tape like. I am stunned by what I hear from digital. I just don't hear the clean crisp acoustic guitars or high definition of lips on a saxophone reed with my vinyl.

I have heard the Sound Galleries Music server playing redbook and also up-sampling. Neither jumped out as better. They were a little different. The owner might say one is better, but he would also say, the quality of the recording is much more important than whether you up-sampled or not.

CPP probably made the best point. If you have the money, business such as I stated will provide a top notch machine. If you have the time and knowledge, you could build your own. If you build your own, it will still be a few thousand in parts and you won't know if you bought the best parts. I know Mojo has tried countless different MB, RAM, CPU etc to find the ones that produce the best sound. They do sound different. That is part of the reason they cost more. Vetted components.
 
fantastic information and discussion here. absent some deep domain knowledge, its clear the diy route takes significant research and then some trial and error getting the right mix of components. spending some time over on CA raised more issues than it resolved and certainly made it clear that a diy music server can be a project / hobby in its own right and probably should be approached from that perspective.

much more research to do but this discussion is pushing me in the direction of an audio component music server with the nucleus+ being a great solution. this is somewhat balanced by the enjoyment of learning about and building a diy server -- however, not sure i would end up with better SQ and at the end of the process and the cost of each route would probably be similar.
 
I would suggest researching into the capabilities of the Nucleus+ and HQPlayer. I know that it cannot do above DSD128 and I an fairly sure (but could be wrong) that it is a closed system and does not interface with HQPlayer. I also know that T+A specially states that Windows is required for DSD256 and DSD512.

Fairly certain that the Nucleus + would not be able to take full advantage of what your wonderful DAC can do. Again, it is possible that I am incorrect here... but I do believe I am correct.
 
aKnyght said:
fantastic information and discussion here. absent some deep domain knowledge, its clear the diy route takes significant research and then some trial and error getting the right mix of components. spending some time over on CA raised more issues than it resolved and certainly made it clear that a diy music server can be a project / hobby in its own right and probably should be approached from that perspective.

much more research to do but this discussion is pushing me in the direction of an audio component music server with the nucleus+ being a great solution. this is somewhat balanced by the enjoyment of learning about and building a diy server -- however, not sure i would end up with better SQ and at the end of the process and the cost of each route would probably be similar.
Click to expand...

Yes, I lack all the technical knowledge they have at CA. I also spent a solid 4 weeks reading over there about 2 hours a day before the swirl settled down and I started tweeking and adding parts. I am not using the external clocks. $3k or so and I am told the return is small. I did what Al said and took a good base unit and modified the software. I actually need to go back into my software and assign static IP address to the gear. It does make an improvement. I had issues a while back and put them back to just finding the equipment on the network and connecting. I need help remembering how to make them static.
 
Many/most router administration software packages can handle static IP addresses for devices on the network. Also, on a Windows machine you can go to control panel / Network and Sharing / Change Adapter Settings / Right Click the Adapter / Click Properties / Click the Protocol you want to configure (IPv4 for example) / Properties; and you can set the IP address etc. here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top