digital backend options

aKnyght

aKnyght

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i am nearing the end of my current system upgrade project. the only major item left is to implement a better digital backend to feed my dac. my goal here is to be able to convert / upsample to dsd (ideally up to dsd512) as well as to play hi-res files natively.

currently, my backend is roon (and sometimes iTunes) on a mac pro which accesses my library and streaming services. everything is then up/down-sampled to 16/44.1 and sent to an airport express via the wired home network which then feeds my dac via an optical cable. i must say that i am not at all unhappy with the SQ of this backend which i think benefits significantly from the upsampling of lower resolution files/streams to 16/44.1 -- this roon dsp link and other posts i have read seem to corroborate this observation.

however, i am sure this can be significantly improved upon and wanted to get others' opinion of options i have been considering.

option 1. keep the roon core on the mac pro and replace the airport express with a network player such as sonicOrbiter, microRendu, ultraRendu or even something like the CuBox-i4x4. this option is clearly the easiest and most cost effective to implement, however, dsd conversion is limited to 128. also, SQ will probably suffer from having the roon core on a computer as well as sending the stream over the home network before it reaches the network player.

option 2. move to a dedicated server / player running roon server such as a nucleus+, sonicTransporter or a diy server such as a NUC or QNAP. this option is certainly higher cost but probably the best in terms of hardware contribution to SQ. nucleus+ seems to be the logical choice as it is absolutely plug-and-play and (from what i gather in the roon community forum) roon dsp supports dsd 512 conversion / upsampling.

anyway, it would be great hear thoughts and experiences on these two options, suggested modifications to one or both, or any other option(s) being overlooked here.

——————
also, has anyone had experience using only roon dsp to convert / upsample to dsd512? most of the implementations i have been reading about to accomplish this have utilized HQPlayer, which i would like to avoid if roon dsp is equally effective.
 
I used to run Roon on an iMac. I also had a NAS and Raspberry Pi/ Digi+ roon-ready player in the network. I tried Roon to upsample my music to higher resolution but ultimately decided on playing at native resolution.

I have now changed my digital set up as follows: moved Roon to a PC running Windows 10. Added HQPlayer as a Roon-Ready player. I used HQPlayer to upsample and upconvert everything to DSD 512.

I much prefer my new set up. DSD512 sounds fantastic. Not sure if Nucleus+ can do DSD512 via HQPlayer.
 
Get HQ player and upsample to DSD512, you won't believe the improvement in sound with that T+A dac. It was made for DSD 512. Build a dedicated desktop with a high end I7 or I8 multicore, 16gb ram and a low ripple power supply like a Corsair RM550X series. I built a dedicated desktop with parts like this and the improvement in sound was like a veil was lifted. I run it headless and remote in using Windows remote desktop from my laptop. It works flawlessly. You can build one for just under $1K. You will need windows 10 desktop pro. You can download it for free and use it but you won't be able to register it.
 
If your going to use a laptop or home made computer with SMPS, you need an endpoint Ethernet connected like a Sonore. Go Ultra or Signature, not micro. Spend $1200 on the PS if Ultra, or just drop the $3200 or so for the Signature.

If your going server its $5k for something good. That would be used price. Mojo actually has a used server for $2400 or so. It's better than mine. I love my digital and do no upsampling. Mojo highly discourages upsampling on their equipment.

IMO Either route are not great for upsampling. Then again, I know nothing about your DAC. If the upsampling is done their, leave it their. Don't do it in the server. Maybe try it from HQ to an endpoint. I have not successfully up sampled with my server. It gets warmer and thicker. It looses edge, But it's not bad edge I loose. It's midrange clarity, crisp attack and soundstage. If your digital is right in the first place, you should not have glare or fatigue you are trying to filter out.
 
Kingrex, the T+A DAC8 was made for upsampling to 8x DSD. Thats where its sweet spot is. It sounds good at lower resolutions but the improvement at 8x DSD is nothing short of spectacular. It works great with HQP doing the upsampling but you need a powerful computer to do so at the max settings for 8x DSD with HQP.

I am not sure that you need a server if you hand pick audiophile parts for a home built desktop. There are motherboards that use low noise caps and other parts. Using M.2 SSD's will do away with SATA cables. No video card is needed which cuts back on electronic noise and higher end extreme low noise cooling fans by Noctua help as well. I am not sure a server would give you any better sound than my computer. But as usual, YMMV.
 
Is the T&A DAC Ethernet connected or USB. I don't know. Just asking. SMPS can work with endpoints. Not so much with USB. If USB, you will hear a dramatic improvemet with a good Linear PS.
 
Kingrex said:
Is the T&A DAC Ethernet connected or USB. I don't know. Just asking. SMPS can work with endpoints. Not so much with USB. If USB, you will hear a dramatic improvemet with a good Linear PS.
Click to expand...


Here is some info on the DAC-
Unfortunately Stereophile did not use 8x DSD for their review.

Description: D/A processor with four selectable oversampling algorithms for PCM playback (FIR kurz, FIR lang, Bézier, Bézier/IIR) and DSD Direct DSD Signal Path via T+A True 1-bit converter. Analog outputs: high level (RCA), 2.5V with 22 ohms output impedance; balanced (XLR), 5.0V with 44 ohms output impedance. Digital inputs: 4 S/PDIF coaxial, 1 optical TosLink, 1 AES/EBU, all handling 16/24-bit data at sample rates from 32kHz to 192kHz;1 USB (Device mode) USB Class 2 Mode; support for asynchronous data transfer; PCM Mode, 16/24/32-bit data with sample rates from 44.1kHz to 384kHz; DSD Mode, DSD64, DSD128, DSD256, DSD512 (Mac OS up to DSD128). Digital output: 1 coax, IEC 60958 (CDDA/LPCM). Analog filter: phase-linear filter with bandwidth switching at 60 or 120kHz for DSD. Frequency ranges: 44.1kHz PCM, 2Hz–20kHz; 48kHz PCM, 2Hz–22kHz; 96kHz PCM, 2Hz–40kHz; 192kHz PCM, 2Hz–80kHz; 384kHz PCM, 2Hz–100kHz; DSD64, 2Hz–44kHz; DSD128, 2Hz–60kHz; DSD256, 2Hz–80kHz; DSD512, 2Hz–100kHz. Total harmonic distortion: <0.001%. Signal/noise: 116dB. Channel separation: 110dB. Standby power consumption: <0.2W.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content...-processor-specifications#WCZ5FLGBGiOu7MyC.99

Here is a comment by a dealer about the above review-

As a T+A dealer, with one of the largest collections of dacs on the East Coast, I am very puzzled by this review! I have been in professional audio retailing for 27 years or since the beginning of the digital revolution, and I can say unequivocally that I am at odds with this review.
To say that two digital front ends sound alike is saying that two sports cars drive the same, sure they are both fast, but the feeling of say a BMW vs a Mercedes is totally different.
If you look at two different dacs unless they are using the same decoding chips and on board filters, then the only difference might be the analog stage, I find there is generally a world of sonic difference between two dacs with carefully level matching.
Take an Auralic Vega vs an NAD M51 these are totally different animals, with completely different technologies, and yes they both sound very good the more expensive dac does sound better, with a wider and more defined sound stage, and greater resolution.
To lump the T+A in with some of these other dacs is doing the T+A dac a disservice. The writer said he did not play with up sampling redbook to Quad Rate DSD, when on all the forums that are talking about this dac are saying that you must hear it at that frequency and decoding type.
I ran J River and took a 16 bit 44k CD and through J River spit out a Dual rate than Quad Rate DSD file on the fly for the T+A DAD 8 DSD to decode, and the difference between the two sampling rates was very audible, Dual DSD was good, Quad rate DSD was amazing!
Many people reading the review might think that the DSD decoding engine can only be used with DSD files when you can easily convert PCS to DSD and vice versa.
The DAC 8 DSD sound great on PCM but feed it a Quad Rate DSD track and you will be absolutely floored, and it moves this little $4k dac into the big leagues, I would say under $10k the Dac 8 is very hard to beat, there is an organic sound and a spooky real sense of presence that once you hear it you will be shocked at just how special the DAC 8 is.

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content...8-dsd-da-processor-page-2#8l6Q2QBgjoxRLevU.99
 
I am using the T+A DAC8 DSD and agree that this DAC being fed 512DSD from HQPlayer is fantastic.

It does not matter the format or resolution original file is: wav, flac, DSD, 24/96, Tidal files, etc. It all gets converted to 512DSD.

If the OP already owns the T+A, then to me the obvious next step is to get a computer with enough power to let HQPlayer do the convert/upsampling to 512DSD.
 
I agree, but I still stand behind a USB connection needs a server with a quiet PS. If Ethernet I just don't know the level of improvement if any. I would also suggest AO and a through dive through the BIOS to shut down all unnecessary function. Especially hyper threading or any boost functions. It all matters and it is free. BIOS that is.
 
If someone is only streaming Tidal, what is the best solution for Roon? Seems ridiculous to have to run a PC or Nucleus if it is not managing any local database or converting to DSD, etc.
 
nicoff said:
If the OP already owns the T+A, then to me the obvious next step is to get a computer with enough power to let HQPlayer do the convert/upsampling to 512DSD.
Click to expand...

i do have the t+a dac 8 dsd and the ability to feed it dsd512 is a large reason i am interested in a backend upgrade.

all the dsd512 conversion/upsampling implementations i have read about here use HQPlayer to do this.

however, beginning with release 1.3, roon's DSP engine also does dsd512 conversion/upsampling. thus, the ability to take HQPlayer out of the loop is highly attractive from a simplicity / sys-admin perspective. it also makes the nucleus+ a very attractive server to pair with the t+a dac.

any insights or comments on the roon dsp sample rate conversion capability and SQ results would be very interesting to me.
 
aKnyght said:
any insights or comments on the roon dsp sample rate conversion capability and SQ results would be very interesting to me.
Click to expand...

I tried upsampling with Roon but much preferred the native (original) signal. I was using another DAC then.

Having previously been disappointed with Roon upsampling I never bothered trying it out again. Besides HQPlayer has so many filter options that Roon does not have that to me it made little sense to compare the two with the new T+A DAC.

The best of both worlds (for me) is: using Roon to manage my library and using HQP as a Roon-ready player to do all the conversions and play the file.

I believe that if you want to do 512DSD upsampling/conversion you must use a windows PC running Windows 10 pro.
 
nicoff said:
I tried upsampling with Roon but much preferred the native (original) signal. I was using another DAC then.

Having previously been disappointed with Roon upsampling I never bothered trying it out again. Besides HQPlayer has so many filter options that Roon does not have that to me it made little sense to compare the two with the new T+A DAC.

The best of both worlds (for me) is: using Roon to manage my library and using HQP as a Roon-ready player to do all the conversions and play the file.

I believe that if you want to do 512DSD upsampling/conversion you must use a windows PC running Windows 10 pro.
Click to expand...

thanks for the insight -- very useful.

fwiw: i have read elsewhere that the main cause of SQ difference between HQP and roon is the filters, however, with recent releases of roon (1.4 and 1.5) the filters are much improved and it is not so much better/worse than simply different.

it is my understanding that windows OS is necessary if the dsd512 stream is to be sent over the network. i would assume roon on a server with a usb connection to the dac would be able to pass the dsd512 stream... but i am not certain about this.
 
aKnyght said:
thanks for the insight -- very useful.

fwiw: i have read elsewhere that the main cause of SQ difference between HQP and roon is the filters, however, with recent releases of roon (1.4 and 1.5) the filters are much improved and it is not so much better/worse than simply different.

it is my understanding that windows OS is necessary if the dsd512 stream is to be sent over the network. i would assume roon on a server with a usb connection to the dac would be able to pass the dsd512 stream... but i am not certain about this.
Click to expand...

You can download a 30day free trial of HQP.
 
aKnyght said:
it is my understanding that windows OS is necessary if the dsd512 stream is to be sent over the network. i would assume roon on a server with a usb connection to the dac would be able to pass the dsd512 stream... but i am not certain about this.
Click to expand...

I use a USB connection to pass the 512DSD from HQP to the T+A DAC.

Prior to having HQP, I was using a RPi/Digi+ as my Roon Endpoint. The RPi/Digi was connected via Ethernet. The RPi/Digi can connect to my old DAC via digital coaxial or USB.
 
aKnyght said:
it requires a powerful processor like the i7 and 8GB of compatible ram. for more information and some hardware requirements i found these two links helpful as a starting point:

https://kb.roonlabs.com/ROCK:_Getting_Started

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Optimized_Core_Kit
Click to expand...


That Nuc would not be able to run HQP at DSD512. And to run HQP at max settings you will need an 8th gen I7 with 6 or more cores I believe. I run an I7 7700k and can run DSD512 but not maxed out.

I suspect that HQP will sound better than Roon but it would be interesting to compare them.
 
vortrex said:
If someone is only streaming Tidal, what is the best solution for Roon? Seems ridiculous to have to run a PC or Nucleus if it is not managing any local database or converting to DSD, etc.
Click to expand...

Go to the Roon Labs website and you will find lots of options. You need Roon Core installed somewhere. Like a computer (PC, Mac, Linux), or a suitable NAS, etc. If all you want to do is play Tidal at regular resolution, then the cheapest Roon installation that you can find will do. If you already have ANY computer at home and either ethernet connection or wifi, you can install Roon Core in your computer and buy a Raspberry Pi plus a DiGi+ hat (about $100 altogether) and be able to stream Tidal and have access to your entire music library etc. In fact you may even be able to convert to certain DSD resolutions within Roon (how high resolution will depend on your computer power) with no problem (I was able to do all that with an iMac that is already 7 years old).
 
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