Different speakers or just an unforgiving room?

R

rdysan

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Oct 10, 2015
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Hi all,


I wonder if I could impose on your collective experience about some decisions I am trying to make. A little while ago I upgraded from an ARCAM Solo integrated CD/amp allied to a pair of B&W 601 speakers to a Cyrus Streamline Plus. On a bit of a whim I bought a pair of second-hand Focal Micro Utopia BEs which I considered to be quite an upgrade from the B&W speakers. Although often sounding just fine, they have a tendency to be a bit jarring at the high-end of vocal performances and I was pretty sure it might be something to do with my room, which is about as unfriendly as you could get I think.


The room is a bit of an L shape, with the speakers backing onto a floor-to-ceiling bookshelf and essentially facing a line of windows (these have no curtains, just vertical blinds). Flooring is machined oak boards over a concrete base (no carpets). The walls are regular plasterboard but there are quite a few guitars hung around the room so it's not really a good possibility to think about lots of acoustic treatment. A friend who is pretty experienced in installing high-level audio for customers reckoned that IHHO the problem was more likely to be the source and suggested I look in the first instance to a tube amp rather than rely on the integrated amp in the Cyrus. I managed to get a ex-demo Rogue Audio Sphinx which is a hybrid tube/ss 100W amp with the source remaining the Cyrus Streamline playing in the main .wav files.


It's certainly better, but that shrillness at the top end still haunts me, making me back off the volume well before I would like to. I'm trying to understand whether I am just stuck with this problem due to the unfriendliness of the room or whether it might be the beryllium tweeters that might be the culprit when in this room.


I've been looking at the possibility of changing the Focals for a pair of Raidho speakers (either the C1.1 or D1). I can't afford to buy these new (so it's not really like I can find a friendly dealer who will let me audition a pair) and I'm worried that having made a further investment in this I'm not going to notice much of a change to sort out my problem. As a listener, I like a wide variance of music ranging from classical, jazz, vocal, pop but generally nothing too bassy. What I'm trying to get is that real sense of being in the room with the musicians at a good volume level without my finger hovering over the volume dial waiting for the top end to get unpleasant.


Any comments, suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated! Even if that's slap around the face telling me to stop being such a plonker and throwing good money after bad!


Many thanks… Rod
 
Hi Rod - can you post pics?

A good combo for taming that tweeter is a tube amp/integrated/preamp whatever combo and Siltech cables (don't shoot the messenger, I know they're expensive, but some of their lower priced stuff has the same affect).

You can also be sure to treat the first reflection point. Do you know how to find the first reflection point?


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That's good advice Mike, but I would add consider a DEQX.

The OP wrote that "[t]he room is a bit of an L shape, with the speakers backing onto a floor-to-ceiling bookshelf and essentially facing a line of windows (these have no curtains, just vertical blinds). Flooring is machined oak boards over a concrete base (no carpets). The walls are regular plasterboard but there are quite a few guitars hung around the room so it's not really a good possibility to think about lots of acoustic treatment."

I wonder if some of the OP's problems are room related FR anomalies. I've been there and done it myself.
 
Hi Mike,

Obviously I can't post pics as I thought I had done about an hour ago but the post doesn't seem to have materialized! Have to try and sort out what I'm doing wrong.

I'll try again now!

Cheers....Rod

PS - Thanks for the welcome Joe!
 
Hi again Mike,

Ahh, I've just seen the "To be able to post links or images your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 2 posts." message which drops the penny!

Anyway, the issue I think I have with the reflection points is the room. The two Focals stand infront of a bookcase and the first reflection point on one side sits a wall mounted electric guitar, on the other its an acoustic guitar hanging on the second wall after a false short wall of the toilet. When I say unforgiving I'm assuming that as the speakers face a line of glass (2 x 1.2m sq glass windows and a floor-to-ceiling glass door) and sit right below two large velux glass roof windows.

I'll have a look at the Siltech, so thanks for the steer.

Cheers....Rod
 

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@ Mike, I just looked at the OP's room layout. You're a DEQX dealer, what do you think?
 
IMHO, your room is good. If anything, your problems should've been bass-related.
My suggestion is to replace the speakers. Or you can spend the money taming your current one :)
The Raidhos you mentioned would be a *considerable* step up from the Focals.

cheers,
alex
 
You mention bare floors and no drapes and reflection points a simple and cost free option to see if it helps is just lay or hang a few blankets in the different spots and see if it helps. A rug has helped my room a lot. Then buy the million dollar cables
 
Garth said:
You mention bare floors and no drapes and reflection points a simple and cost free option to see if it helps is just lay or hang a few blankets in the different spots and see if it helps. A rug has helped my room a lot. Then buy the million dollar cables
Click to expand...

Great suggestion Garth. Before buying gear, treat the room.


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@Alex - I think you may well be right - that's certainly my gut feeling, although I don't think the room helps at all.

@Garth - I've had a go at a few of those but it didn't seem to make a huge difference. I'm starting to think it must be the speakers.

Cheers...Rod
 
Rod - check out this video. You will need someone to help you identify the first and second reflection points. Focus on first reflection point first. Hanging a heavy blanked as Garth suggested (even draped over a chair) will give you an idea of what some treatments can do.

http://youtu.be/B9u7k2V4YPw


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What you're hearing may be a radiation pattern issue.

The Micro Utopias combine a 6" woofer with a 1" tweeter. I would guess the crossover is in the 2.5 kHz ballpark, but the exact frequency doesn't really matter.

Let's assume the Micro Utopias are approximately flat on-axis. Off-axis, the midwoofer will be beaming in the crossover region, whereas the tweeter will still have a very wide pattern. So at the bottom of the tweeter's range, ballpark 2.5 - 5 kHz, you'll effectively have excess off-axis energy relative to most of the spectrum. In fact, the ultra-rigid cone Focal uses for their midwoofer makes the off-axis energy discrepancy in the crossover region even more pronounced (just about everything in speaker design involves tradeoffs). And unfortunately the ear is most sensitive right smack in the region where we have this excess off-axis energy (2.5-5 kHz), which will reach our ears via reflections and skew the perceived tonal balance accordingly. I may be wrong of course, but that's my best guess.

The solution isn't easy. If you try to absorb the excess off-axis energy at the lower end of the tweeter's range, you'll end up absorbing even more energy higher up the spectrum. Not good. If you crank in a compensating dip via EQ, you'll lose some of that upper harmonic richness and detail that's presented by the first-arrival sound. I think your best bet (short of "new speakers") would be to listen nearfield, so that the speaker's first-arrival sound is much louder than its reverberant sound at the listening position. The downside of this would be a "drier" presentation, but I think it's more likely to be a net improvement than the other two options.

Of course there's "get new speakers", but if nearfield listening is practical, might as well give it a shot first.

One easy test you might try: Put on a song that spotlights the problem, turn the volume up a bit louder than normal, and walk out of the room, listening through the open doorway with no line-of-sight to the speakers. From out there, all you can hear is the reverberant sound - there is no direct path from the speakers to your ears. If the tonal balance sounds a bit rolled-off on top but otherwise natural from out there, then my assumptions are probably wrong. If the tonal balance sounds like there's emphasis in that lower treble region, then it's probably that radiation pattern thing. (That's called the L.I.A.R. test... it stands for Listening In Another Room, and ime is a good predictor of long-term enjoyment provided that the speakers sound good in the sweet spot as well.)
 
The best sound out of "any" system that I have heard has been in a room with concrete floors & lush carpet.New speakers will "create" new problems...... tell me I'm wrong when you buy some new speakers & before you treat the room. In the past I have found reflection points & then room nodes to be the most frustrating & elusive things to nullify. The most counter productive search of the holy grail of real live sound is to keep throwing "gear" as the cure!
 
Many thanks for your responses guys. I had a long cogitation and think I have an initial plan of action. I’m not going to plump for the Raidho D1s as firstly I’m far from convinced it will cure the problem and secondly because this may result in my wife removing certain dangly objects I possess and to which I’ve become quite attached over the years.

It’s possible now into my second century that my ears are just not as good as they used to be but I’m pretty sure it’s not just me. In so many ways the Focals are just beautiful – they have a wonderful staging and clarity and just cause issues at the high end. I’m kind of intrigued at the DEQX suggestion but looking at the forums this is far from a ‘set and forget’ solution but a real labour of love to get the best from. I may have to look into this further. I’ll also check out the L.I.A.R test, Duke.

In the meantime, I have a friend who has kindly offered to loan me a pair of Spatial Audio M1 Turbos to see what difference an open backed speaker option might make, versus a cabinet. From what I have read they are more forgiving of room acoustics – I’m intrigued to find out.

Cheers…Rod
 
Rod, I agree with you. I love the newer Focal tweeter,(like the Sopra), but I always found their older design to be a little bright for my ears. I saw that you don't listen to bass heavy music, so I agree with Alex that the Raidho speaker should make you much happier.
 
I think we just heard from Duke L. If that is who I think he is, his post should be taken with extra consideration and seriousness. Duke L manufacturers speakers.

Duke, do you think room EQ would help? Many of the box speakers that I have looked at generally cross over in the 2.5K Hz range. Do you think the problem you described above would be a problem with other speaker brands that x-over at that frequency?

Seems like the room is a major contributor. That's why I suggested the DEQX. Do you that gizmo might help.

Of course, not much discussion on the OP's other gear. Haven't given much thought about equipment issues.

Regards,

BIF
 
The DEQX will definitely help in a trouble room. It helps with time delay associated with a trouble room (like an "L" shaped room), it helps with problematic room nodes and much more as you know.
 
Duke said:
What you're hearing may be a radiation pattern issue.

The Micro Utopias combine a 6" woofer with a 1" tweeter. I would guess the crossover is in the 2.5 kHz ballpark, but the exact frequency doesn't really matter.

Let's assume the Micro Utopias are approximately flat on-axis. Off-axis, the midwoofer will be beaming in the crossover region, whereas the tweeter will still have a very wide pattern. So at the bottom of the tweeter's range, ballpark 2.5 - 5 kHz, you'll effectively have excess off-axis energy relative to most of the spectrum. In fact, the ultra-rigid cone Focal uses for their midwoofer makes the off-axis energy discrepancy in the crossover region even more pronounced (just about everything in speaker design involves tradeoffs). And unfortunately the ear is most sensitive right smack in the region where we have this excess off-axis energy (2.5-5 kHz), which will reach our ears via reflections and skew the perceived tonal balance accordingly. I may be wrong of course, but that's my best guess.

The solution isn't easy. If you try to absorb the excess off-axis energy at the lower end of the tweeter's range, you'll end up absorbing even more energy higher up the spectrum. Not good. If you crank in a compensating dip via EQ, you'll lose some of that upper harmonic richness and detail that's presented by the first-arrival sound. I think your best bet (short of "new speakers") would be to listen nearfield, so that the speaker's first-arrival sound is much louder than its reverberant sound at the listening position. The downside of this would be a "drier" presentation, but I think it's more likely to be a net improvement than the other two options.

Of course there's "get new speakers", but if nearfield listening is practical, might as well give it a shot first.

One easy test you might try: Put on a song that spotlights the problem, turn the volume up a bit louder than normal, and walk out of the room, listening through the open doorway with no line-of-sight to the speakers. From out there, all you can hear is the reverberant sound - there is no direct path from the speakers to your ears. If the tonal balance sounds a bit rolled-off on top but otherwise natural from out there, then my assumptions are probably wrong. If the tonal balance sounds like there's emphasis in that lower treble region, then it's probably that radiation pattern thing. (That's called the L.I.A.R. test... it stands for Listening In Another Room, and ime is a good predictor of long-term enjoyment provided that the speakers sound good in the sweet spot as well.)
Click to expand...

Excellent advice, Duke!
 
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