Devore 0/96's

I think I get what some are saying with the perception of something missing - as I have owned AN J speakers for a decade and now the AN E which is a similar design approach to the Devore (I've only heard the Orangutan once) so this is more about the AN E which I bought in August. I was out at a shop listening to very pricey slim narrow baffle design loudspeakers with several drivers and a Diamond tweeter with top of th eline Pass Labs gear. Listening to the overplayed "Keith Don't Go" by Nils Lofgren - the sound "seemed" to present all the information. Treble energy tends to give that impression but there was plenty of sparkle. But the overall impression was that of being tiresome. When I got home to my much less pricey rig (but with SET) the leading edge wasn't nearly as pronounced as it was with the $100k+ set-up - but it was far more enjoyable because the dots were connected together. One could very much say that the $100k system was more accurate in the sense that yo could hear more treble energy and I suppose air (although usually when I hear air it bothers me because in no live setting EVER - do I say wow check out the air around instruments. Air IMO is often mistaken for what it really is - grain. I have yet to hear ANY slim line designed speaker using multiple stacked drivers and highly varied driver materials that I would take over the likes of the new AN E/Alnico HE or Trenner and Freidl RA or albeit brief audition of the DeVore for regular domestic living spaces. In large rooms I'd go large horns or possibly a large electrostat but probably horns due to SET amps in my opinion sounding quite a lot better than SS (HNF variety).

The advantage the AN E appears to have over the Orangutan from what I can tell is that the AN E has superior driver integration - it sounds about as close to a single driver as it gets in a two way IME. The Orangutan uses a 10 inch driver versus the 8. The Orangutan has the advantage of not needing the corners or near wall position to gain low frequency response AND it is considerably more efficient allowing the owner to use 2 watt amps while the AN E will need 5-7 watts. But the AN E can also be had for half the price and can be upgraded in stages later. And those upgrades can be large. The AN E/Alnico HE is rather deserved the product of the year it got in 2013 from the Asian press IMO. But the AN E is better with concrete walls not the typical western home with plaster board which just sings along with the speakers which can certainly dull the upper bass and or create boom. They sounded their worst at CAS 2012 but was arguably a top 3-5 room at The Show in the Flamingo with concrete walls.

The main thing is that you don't buy systems that force you to listen to what the system can do well. If I had that Pass Labs expensive slim tower system - well I would not want to listen to music like Keith Don't Go. Instead I would be forced to buy whatever it does well and only those recordings. Most systems will perform reasonably well with good recordings - they're good after all. How does it do with music you actually like?
 
You are saying Nils Lofgren's "Keith Don't Go" is a less than stellar recording? Hmmm....well, it seems to be the choice ad nauseam in many rooms at most shows.

I'm glad you like the AN speakers. The only ones I've heard were at this years RMAF and TAVES.



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RichardAusten said:
I think I get what some are saying with the perception of something missing - as I have owned AN J speakers for a decade and now the AN E which is a similar design approach to the Devore (I've only heard the Orangutan once) so this is more about the AN E which I bought in August. I was out at a shop listening to very pricey slim narrow baffle design loudspeakers with several drivers and a Diamond tweeter with top of th eline Pass Labs gear. Listening to the overplayed "Keith Don't Go" by Nils Lofgren - the sound "seemed" to present all the information. Treble energy tends to give that impression but there was plenty of sparkle. But the overall impression was that of being tiresome. When I got home to my much less pricey rig (but with SET) the leading edge wasn't nearly as pronounced as it was with the $100k+ set-up - but it was far more enjoyable because the dots were connected together. One could very much say that the $100k system was more accurate in the sense that yo could hear more treble energy and I suppose air (although usually when I hear air it bothers me because in no live setting EVER - do I say wow check out the air around instruments. Air IMO is often mistaken for what it really is - grain. I have yet to hear ANY slim line designed speaker using multiple stacked drivers and highly varied driver materials that I would take over the likes of the new AN E/Alnico HE or Trenner and Freidl RA or albeit brief audition of the DeVore for regular domestic living spaces. In large rooms I'd go large horns or possibly a large electrostat but probably horns due to SET amps in my opinion sounding quite a lot better than SS (HNF variety).

The advantage the AN E appears to have over the Orangutan from what I can tell is that the AN E has superior driver integration - it sounds about as close to a single driver as it gets in a two way IME. The Orangutan uses a 10 inch driver versus the 8. The Orangutan has the advantage of not needing the corners or near wall position to gain low frequency response AND it is considerably more efficient allowing the owner to use 2 watt amps while the AN E will need 5-7 watts. But the AN E can also be had for half the price and can be upgraded in stages later. And those upgrades can be large. The AN E/Alnico HE is rather deserved the product of the year it got in 2013 from the Asian press IMO. But the AN E is better with concrete walls not the typical western home with plaster board which just sings along with the speakers which can certainly dull the upper bass and or create boom. They sounded their worst at CAS 2012 but was arguably a top 3-5 room at The Show in the Flamingo with concrete walls.

The main thing is that you don't buy systems that force you to listen to what the system can do well. If I had that Pass Labs expensive slim tower system - well I would not want to listen to music like Keith Don't Go. Instead I would be forced to buy whatever it does well and only those recordings. Most systems will perform reasonably well with good recordings - they're good after all. How does it do with music you actually like?
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This is a Devore thread. If you want to preach the virtues of Audio Note, should there be any, start an Audio Note thread.

IMO, the AN E at entry level is not bad but the whole Silver upgrade marketing deal is snake oil at best. The upgrades are large in dollars, not sound quality.

You are correct that unlike the AN E's the Devores do not rely on corner placement as was stated previously in another post.

There has been so much misinformation recently in this thread it is getting hard to keep track of.
 
I think many recordings like this are chosen because they do their thing well which is that it's not a particularly taxing recording - like most of the likes of Diana Krall. To clarify the Lofgren recording is good but I would say that with the system I heard it on it was fatiguing.

The fact that system A may be perceived to be providing "more" information does not in fact make it a better system. Often More information isn't what is on the recording or is over highlighting an aspect of the recording (especially in the treble band) which gives the impression it is more accurate or transparent.

When I first heard the AN E I was roundly unimpressed with them versus my favorites back in the day. It was more of a slow burn that made me note that they were head and shoulders better than everything else my dealer was selling Products

It was in fact reaching the high notes but the sound was connected like a straight line instead of a series of dots joined together to look as if it had a straight line. Hearing those gaps between dots gives the impression of more detail but it really isn't.

But Soundhounds is in a full brick building - when I heard the AN E at a show - CAS 2012 I was largely disappointed because it was just so flat and largely muddled sounding. Indeed a fellow on another forum who HATED the AN E and was ripping me up but he went to CAS this summer and a different dealer actually brought his own corners because the room was so utterly poor. That same fellow came on the forum saying they were the best room at the show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-wyCAYKt74


That's the issue with showroom demos - how does something go from one of the worst to the best from show to show? This goes to any room really - room and gear are factors. To me good speakers often get comments that are polar opposites.

Bright and shouty to warm and laid back. The E has been sad to have a vague stage and lacks precise imaging but another will say and have said they have panoramic staging reminding them of MBL omni-directionals to deep front to back staging to being too flat and not having any depth. To me a stereo should produce all of those things - if a speaker always presents a large stage - or some dealer says "this amp is better because it has a stage THIIIIIIIIIIS big and the other one has a smaller one I get suspicious. Recordings present the stage. The amp or speakers should not present a big stage - if it can't create a small stage when there is a small stage it's not particularly resolving.

Now I have not heard the O/96 enough to really know and I would not base things on one demonstration under show conditions. I did like the AN K and AN J a lot more than the small DeVore 3XL or whatever and the Gibbon 88 but these are typical narrow baffle designs which almost always do nothing for me. The big fatty Orangutan sounds much better than his lower models IMO.
 
Yes the 3XL and Gibbon 88 are complete different animal vs O96. I'm really enjoying my O/96 on variety amps including Shindo . McIntosh and cheap 50 watts SS amp as well . I truly think for the price tag of O/96 I have no complain. Its a musical speakers. If you want to hear more details go find the silver back or other audiophile speakers. Let the O/96 sings with music I can sit down and listen to them all day. :)
 
Paul said:
Yes the 3XL and Gibbon 88 are complete different animal vs O96. I'm really enjoying my O/96 on variety amps including Shindo . McIntosh and cheap 50 watts SS amp as well . I truly think for the price tag of O/96 I have no complain. Its a musical speakers. If you want to hear more details go find the silver back or other audiophile speakers. Let the O/96 sings with music I can sit down and listen to them all day. :)
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Paul,
If I understand correctly, you still feel the need to switch between the Westminsters and the O96 ?


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Jerome W said:
Paul,
If I understand correctly, you still feel the need to switch between the Westminsters and the O96 ?


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk
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No Jerome. I can't even compare these two. If thats what you are asking.

The O/96 is in my bedroom. :)
 
NOLG4EVR said:
This is a Devore thread. If you want to preach the virtues of Audio Note, should there be any, start an Audio Note thread.

IMO, the AN E at entry level is not bad but the whole Silver upgrade marketing deal is snake oil at best. The upgrades are large in dollars, not sound quality.

You are correct that unlike the AN E's the Devores do not rely on corner placement as was stated previously in another post.

There has been so much misinformation recently in this thread it is getting hard to keep track of.
Click to expand...

I think there are general camps of loudspeakers of which the DeVore and AN E are cut from a very similar cloth with a similar target audience which is Single Ended Triode owners. There are not a lot of high end speakers on the market that are suitable to such amps (in the non horn and non single driver types).

As for the cables well AN usually changes the crossovers and the actual drivers so the difference in sound isn't as attributable to just the cable. The AN E/AlniCo Spx HE is only available in HK so far and is a rather staggering improvement over other AN E models. I auditioned this version with the Shindo Petrus preamp into Audio Note Kegon's at the owner's home who is a retired pianist for the Chinese Orchestra who previously owned far more ridiculously expensive speakers from Wilson Audio and the like. The Chinese drum direct to disc masters was astounding - even I as someone with a lot of AN exposure have not heard them do that before.

This thread has suggested other speakers and my view of these things is to audition similar products. A note for example was made about the the fact that the Orangutan was 1/3 more expensive than something else he was considering. Well the AN E/Lexus is $5,000 less than the O/96 and is quite easy to drive. 7 watts is enough. But it does have the upgrade option. There are pros and cons to these models but there are people who prefer the E to the DeVore and an E did just win product of the year and it has a longer track record. So when these SET friendly speaker ideas come up it's not a terrible idea to include several options as well as the likes of the Teresonic Ingenium or ZU Audio line.

I like the DeVore a lot based on my one audition and probably would be just as happy with them. Still I would want to cover as much of the Higher efficiency field as possible to audition.
 
RichardAusten said:
I think there are general camps of loudspeakers of which the DeVore and AN E are cut from a very similar cloth with a similar target audience which is Single Ended Triode owners. There are not a lot of high end speakers on the market that are suitable to such amps (in the non horn and non single driver types).

As for the cables well AN usually changes the crossovers and the actual drivers so the difference in sound isn't as attributable to just the cable. The AN E/AlniCo Spx HE is only available in HK so far and is a rather staggering improvement over other AN E models. I auditioned this version with the Shindo Petrus preamp into Audio Note Kegon's at the owner's home who is a retired pianist for the Chinese Orchestra who previously owned far more ridiculously expensive speakers from Wilson Audio and the like. The Chinese drum direct to disc masters was astounding - even I as someone with a lot of AN exposure have not heard them do that before.

This thread has suggested other speakers and my view of these things is to audition similar products. A note for example was made about the the fact that the Orangutan was 1/3 more expensive than something else he was considering. Well the AN E/Lexus is $5,000 less than the O/96 and is quite easy to drive. 7 watts is enough. But it does have the upgrade option. There are pros and cons to these models but there are people who prefer the E to the DeVore and an E did just win product of the year and it has a longer track record. So when these SET friendly speaker ideas come up it's not a terrible idea to include several options as well as the likes of the Teresonic Ingenium or ZU Audio line.

I like the DeVore a lot based on my one audition and probably would be just as happy with them. Still I would want to cover as much of the Higher efficiency field as possible to audition.
Click to expand...
thank you Richard i agree with alot of what you wrote here. ive never heard AN speakers but find myself in the situation that i run 12.5w and now its a 15w rating for using xls 300b tubes but have limited choice of speakers, the 096 is one of them, zu is also still on my list as well as well as volti, vapor, and a few others. im going to hear the 096 next week and i hope for the best. in an earlier post in this thread i mentioned it seems the 096 is love or hate among people i know. im not going to spend a fortune on speakers and i love my amp and the only way its going anywhere is if i change to the 25w allnic a5000's which would open up my choices alot more. alot of people love the look of the the 096 ,but i never really have. but to me looks are secondary to getting the sound i want and run the amps i want, the 096 is right in my budget and i hope to love it. unfortunately alot of the speakers on my list are internet ddirect and i cant really listen to them. the internet and threads like this one are very helpful to me, and speaking of a wide range of speakers in them is a great help. thanks again.
 
NOLG4EVR said:
Listening to the 0/96's right now.

Have Miles on the table, wait something's missing.

OMG, the trumpet, it's gone.....
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Hahahahahaha.....THAT is an easy flaw to articulate. In all seriousness, Mike's description of the mismatch between the tweeter and woofer was an accurate description of what I heard in the earlier models. Not "mismatch"...those had more drivers and I'm not sure that is a sufficiently technical to be fair to the efforts of the designer. But the sound description was accurate. Again, I do not know the cause of the leanness that I was hearing and whether it was, as Mike was suggesting he hears in the 96, an overemphasized tweeter.

The missing information, though, that is a head scratcher. I'm totally ignorant when it comes to these types of technical questions, but I'd guess this phenomenon is easy to hear. I've never come across something like this in any of the dozen speakers that I've owned, and that includes the Devores and aforementioned Audio Notes (I had AN E-LX Signatures) all the way down the my lowly Klipsch years ago. But what could account for some information in complex not getting through? I take it we aren't talking a crossover issue - how high are the highs and how low are the lows.



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I was simply responding to Steve (Petro85's question) regarding other opinions of the O/96's.

As far as missing info, you need to listen to recordings you know well. Of course, listening to Shelby Lynn sing Just A Little Lovin' isn't going to give the O/96's troubles. But give them big band, large symphonic or even moderately complex music and I FEEL they leave out a lot of details, not even micro dynamics, but a large part of the music. I'm listening to big band and saying, "but wait, there should be X, Y and X here playing now" and it either sounds very faint or can't be picked up at all.

This has nothing to do with audiophile sound vs musical speakers. Look, if the point is to just hear some sounds that are pleasing, fine. But if you want to get as close to live or as close to the recording, it's not.

You will get no disagreement from me regarding long time listening. From a fatigue standpoint, I could listen to the O/96's all day long. But when I listen, I want to be transformed to the event. And yes, there are speakers for $12,000 or less than can get you a lot closer IMO.

Neither way of listening is right or wrong - but that's just me. For me, when I listen to the O/96's, I don't feel like I've been transformed to the event - live or otherwise. I feel like I've been transformed to Walt Disney World's It's A Small World.



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Mike said:
I was simply responding to Steve (Petro85's question) regarding other opinions of the O/96's.

As far as missing info, you need to listen to recordings you know well. Of course, listening to Shelby Lynn sing Just A Little Lovin' isn't going to give the O/96's troubles. But give them big band, large symphonic or even moderately complex music and I FEEL they leave out a lot of details, not even micro dynamics, but a large part of the music. I'm listening to big band and saying, "but wait, there should be X, Y and X here playing now" and it either sounds very faint or can't be picked up at all.

This has nothing to do with audiophile sound vs musical speakers. Look, if the point is to just hear some sounds that are pleasing, fine. But if you want to get as close to live or as close to the recording, it's not.

You will get no disagreement from me regarding long time listening. From a fatigue standpoint, I could listen to the O/96's all day long. But when I listen, I want to be transformed to the event. And yes, there are speakers for $12,000 or less than can get you a lot closer IMO.

Neither way of listening is right or wrong - but that's just me. For me, when I listen to the O/96's, I don't feel like I've been transformed to the event - live or otherwise. I feel like I've been transformed to Walt Disney World's It's A Small World.



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Hi Mike - I appreciate your observations and find the comments interesting. I'm on the same page as you...people can have whatever tastes they want in this hobby. There is no one way to do it. I appreciate a many different approaches. BUT I think you are selling yourself short here. You cannot "feel" information is missing. You can feel if you like a speaker or not. That is subjective. Missing information from your reference recordings is objective. Your comments make it clear that this is something that is beyond emphasizing one element of the sound spectrum to highlight another. Or to put it another way, it isn't employing something akin to the well known British monitor bass bump. That is a sound shaping technique. You are referring to missing notes. That would be a massive design flaw, probably by anyone's measure are irrespective of whether they have a "musical" or "accuracy" approach.


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To be fair, I also want to point out that I find this deficiency so unusual, that I think it warrants further investigation of the system or speaker in question to determine whether something is wrong or whether there is an equipment mismatch. Again, I've been pretty clear that Devores haven't been for my taste, but I've never heard - or not heard - this issue. In any speaker that I can recall.

I'm trying to think back to my worst system.... Cain and Cain Abbys with a set amp (2a3...Wrights and Welbornes). Could it play all music? No way! I vividly remember trying to play some newer (at the time) Tom Waits. Hilariously bad. But it played all the notes. Everything was there. It was just bad.


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Kev - when I was listening to tracks I knew, I was listening for specific notes, specific nuances, specific instruments that augment the piece and they were absent. I can't explain it. I'm just reporting what I heard (or didn't hear). In some cases, yes, the trombone was barely noticeable, in other cases, the pluck of the bass was absent.

Look, as I understand it, building speakers is all about making certain trade offs. As I understand it, a designer has to chose between two of the three (but never all three): 1. super efficiency/benign load, 2. small size/footprint and 3. dynamics. It's rare to find a speaker that has all three, although some speakers like the Spatial Hologram M1's are giving this age old engineering limitation a run for its money.

If I wanted a super efficient speaker (although the O/96's efficiency ratings appear to be quite overly inflated - 91db measured instead of the 96db rated - that is a big difference in the "marketing" scheme of things (Source: DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com), a small footprint that is drop-dead gorgeous, yes, I would be willing to give up all the resolution, detail and dynamics of a lesser efficient or monolithic sized speaker and the O/96 would be in consideration.

But for me, I'm just not willing to give up the "I am there" or "they are here" objective.

YMMV
 
Mike said:
Kev - when I was listening to tracks I knew, I was listening for specific notes, specific nuances, specific instruments that augment the piece and they were absent. I can't explain it. I'm just reporting what I heard (or didn't hear). In some cases, yes, the trombone was barely noticeable, in other cases, the pluck of the bass was absent.

Look, as I understand it, building speakers is all about making certain trade offs. As I understand it, a designer has to chose between two of the three (but never all three): 1. super efficiency/benign load, 2. small size/footprint and 3. dynamics. It's rare to find a speaker that has all three, although some speakers like the Spatial Hologram M1's are giving this age old engineering limitation a run for its money.

If I wanted a super efficient speaker (although the O/96's efficiency ratings appear to be quite overly inflated - 91db measured instead of the 96db rated (Source: DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com), a small footprint that is drop-dead gorgeous, yes, I would be willing to give up all the resolution, detail and dynamics of a lesser efficient or monolithic sized speaker and the O/96 would be in consideration.

But for me, I'm just not willing to give up the "I am there" or "they are here" objective.

YMMV
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This speaker has garnered some praise. Sure, some don't like it and that's only natural. You've levied a fairly serious accusation that merits further investigation. Speaker design is about trade offs, of course. Any of us who've managed to find our way to this forum understand that. I'm not talking about that. You are not talking about that. This isn't a question of taste. No one designs an instrument out of an orchestra. Low bass is one thing, but your posts describe a speaker that cannot be working as intended or that was not designed properly in the first place.

Again, a serious charge and one that warrants further investigation to be fair to the brand, I would think. Are we talking the infamous sounds of the subway next to the CSO or is this "Holy crap! The violas are missing!!" My opinion, I suppose...am I making too much of this? Honestly asking. Are there other speakers that omit parts of recordings that can be easily observed on other speakers. I honestly do not have a handy comparable reference in my own experience and it is a problem I would find troubling on $1000 speakers. To see this allegation with far more expensive speakers is troubling.


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