Criticizing a friend's system

A

AVphile

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Earlier this week, I was invited to a friend's home to listen to what he said were "significant upgrades" to his audio system. Indeed, he had made numerous changes, the more significant ones being the acquisitions of: McIntosh MC1.25kw mono amplifiers; Kimber Select interconnects; Sunlight software update to his PS Audio Directstream DAC; and ISO Acoustics RHEA isolation feet (for his Magnapan 3.7i speakers). Unchanged were his McIntosh C2600 preamplifer, Kimber Monocle-XL speaker cables, PS Audio P20 Power Plant, and REL S/812 subwoofers (pair). I forgot to ask about his power cables. Roon/Tidal supplied the source material.

As you can imagine, he is very proud of his system. I had prepared a play list of pieces which I knew well and believed would provide a comprehensive test of his system's capabilities and quality. Very regrettably, his "new baby" was not beautiful. Various terms that come to mind in describing it are bright, shrill, piercing, exaggerated treble, etc. Notwithstanding the clarity of the reproduction, it was nearly painful to listen, and I could not wait to depart. I tried to be diplomatic in my providing him with my critique for I did not want to hurt his feelings, and, otherwise that mentioning that the sound was a little bit more bright than I would prefer, I was generally complementary about such aspects as the deep bass, how impressive the system was (actually I meant in appearance), etc.

I confess I am perplexed. He obviously spent a fortune on his upgrades, he did purchase well-regarded products, and yet his system overall sounded much worse than before he started his recent upgrading. In considering his "upgraded" system overall, can anyone suggest where and how it went astray?
 
There are so many variables, it's impossible to say. Could be that after making so many changes, he needs to tweak his speaker placement. I know that in my system, just being off a little bit can mean the difference between bright and not. Maybe break in. Maybe kimber isn't a good match. Maybe it was the source material. Maybe it was your mood or the weather or humidity messing with you. I've had that happen! In short, you should just visit him again later and see if you feel the same way.

Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk
 
Tidal being the source of the music you heard didn’t help.
 
Ask Joe about the 1.25kw’s. We both had the same reaction: run out of the room. Fast. Nasty thin and bright.


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Mike said:
Ask Joe about the 1.25kw’s. We both had the same reaction: run out of the room. Fast. Nasty thin and bright.
Click to expand...

My local MacIntosh dealer, who also carries Magnepan, will not carry the 1.25's. Unsurprisingly, his favorites for the 20.7's are the 2152 and the 275.
 
Various Magnepan speakers can also very easily sound thin, lean and bright in combination with improper setup, bad room acoustics and poor synergy. Some gear brings out the best of them, some gear does not. McIntosh amps are typically not lean sounding with most speakers but there were some instances where the combinations did sound less than satisfying to my ears with the bigger amps. I have owned 275, 501, 2275 and 2301 McIntosh amps and have heard most of them except the MC1.25KW at one point or another. Hard for me to believe the MC1.25Kw are that bad but anything is possible.
 
AVphile said:
Earlier this week, I was invited to a friend's home to listen to what he said were "significant upgrades" to his audio system. Indeed, he had made numerous changes, the more significant ones being the acquisitions of: McIntosh MC1.25kw mono amplifiers; Kimber Select interconnects; Sunlight software update to his PS Audio Directstream DAC; and ISO Acoustics RHEA isolation feet (for his Magnapan 3.7i speakers). Unchanged were his McIntosh C2600 preamplifer, Kimber Monocle-XL speaker cables, PS Audio P20 Power Plant, and REL S/812 subwoofers (pair). I forgot to ask about his power cables. Roon/Tidal supplied the source material.

As you can imagine, he is very proud of his system. I had prepared a play list of pieces which I knew well and believed would provide a comprehensive test of his system's capabilities and quality. Very regrettably, his "new baby" was not beautiful. Various terms that come to mind in describing it are bright, shrill, piercing, exaggerated treble, etc. Notwithstanding the clarity of the reproduction, it was nearly painful to listen, and I could not wait to depart. I tried to be diplomatic in my providing him with my critique for I did not want to hurt his feelings, and, otherwise that mentioning that the sound was a little bit more bright than I would prefer, I was generally complementary about such aspects as the deep bass, how impressive the system was (actually I meant in appearance), etc.

I confess I am perplexed. He obviously spent a fortune on his upgrades, he did purchase well-regarded products, and yet his system overall sounded much worse than before he started his recent upgrading. In considering his "upgraded" system overall, can anyone suggest where and how it went astray?
Click to expand...

The Maggie 3.7i is more than a decent speaker, my 2cent ,


Throw away the McIntosh pre amp , they never ever made a good pre amp after the C22 , i would do that first before Condemning the Class B amp ..!



Regards
 
rbbert said:
My local MacIntosh dealer, who also carries Magnepan, will not carry the 1.25's. Unsurprisingly, his favorites for the 20.7's are the 2152 and the 275.
Click to expand...

Serge would love them , his auditory memory resets( self admitting ) every 2 mins , no way to recall how thin class B can sound ...!


:)

Apparently you gotta buy vintage MAC to hear what its all about ...!
 
If he is very proud of his system isn't that what matters? Plus, all of that new stuff will probably settle down after break in. ( Break in is part equipment and part listener)
 
Thank you, all for the time you have taken to respond to my inquiry. Since I have heard his previously-configured system, albeit probably a year ago, as well, I think that Mike may really have it pegged. My friend has had his new McIntosh MC1.25kw mono amps for six to nine months, and he plays music close to every day; by now they probably are as broken-in as they are going get. When looking at his purchases, those amps stick out far more as the source of the problem than new cables or software or isolating footers.

Those new amps replaced MC611s in his system. As I recall, this terrible brightness was not evident with those amps. In fact, then his system sounded fairly good overall.

I guess this is another lesson of bigger, newer, and more expensive does not necessarily result in better.
 
Mike said:
Ask Joe about the 1.25kw’s. We both had the same reaction: run out of the room. Fast. Nasty thin and bright.
Click to expand...
My experience hearing a completely different system which had recently incorporated MC1.25kw amps was in agreement with Mike and Joe's, way too bright and glassy sounding. Couldn't make a graceful exit fast enough! :facepalm:
 
Am I confused or aren't you the same guy that's just now asking about which one of these two McIntosh amps (611 0r 1.25kw) to purchase for your own personal system on another forum. If that's the case why the story about a friends system? This advise request was made hours after you told us how bad you thought the 1.25's sounded.
 
To my ears and over the decades of listening, a great amplifier has very little to add on its own, if it is up to the challenge of driving the speakers properly. A good amplifier will simply reveal a speaker's true character. It is only when an amplifier can't keep up with the transient demand of music and the resulting varying impedance load of the speaker, be it due to insufficient power reserves or capacitive storage, that is starts to add nastiness of its own, depending on its topology.... I seriously doubt there is anything wrong with the MC1.25KW. In this video the Focal Scala Utopia sounds exactly what I would imagine it would sound like with virtually any powerful amp. The speaker sounds brutally revealing and HiFi'ish and that is exactly how it sounded the few times I heard it. Nothing new here. If the recording is good, the result will be good and vice-versa.

Let's not forget that an amp would seriously have to measure differently on the bench and be non-linear to actually "sound" that much different on the same pair of speakers compared to other amps... Does the MC1.25KW measure differently? I have not looked at them or heard them.

Also, I don't need to point out that REVIEWS will also "sound" very different that what is being claimed in this thread. I quote from Soundstage Ultra... :rolleyes:

Having recently reviewed Merrill Audio’s Element 118 monoblock amplifier ($36,000/pair), I expected to hear a tonal shift with the McIntosh MC1.25KWs, and I did. The Element 118 is an exceedingly neutral, transparent, and revealing amplifier; in many ways, it’s a reviewer’s dream amp. The McIntosh MC1.25KW’s sound was warmer, richer, smoother -- in short, not quite as tonally balanced. Nonetheless, I found the MC1.25KWs’ sound to be compellingly indulgent overall. But in stark contrast with the Element 118 -- an amplifier whose sound I find to be uncolored until I push it very hard -- it was clear that McIntosh has engineered the MC1.25KW to sound better than the MC1.2KW, yet maintain a degree or two of McIntosh’s traditional house sound.

Review link McIntosh Laboratory MC1.25KW Mono Amplifiers






 
Well, one useful thing came out of this thread. A new album discovered which I am enjoying.. LOL



51a6swva0cL._AC_UL600_SR600,600_.jpg
 
So Serge,

No way to seriously hear if One amp sounds differently from another unless we bench test it ?

:rolleyes:

Sad to see such an iconic brand go down in flames like this , their along way off the MC3500 set the world standard trajectory of the 1960’s ..

I think our new world reviewer “Jay” gave them midfi packup and run status as they never made his top 10 American made amp list , which only had 3 amps listed .. :)

Jay’s food Hamburger rating analogies would put this “Big Mac” on the 1.00 value menu ..

:roflmao:

Regards
 
for me, I had 2301's & Stradivari's, period!!! I knew then & there that there was not another pairing that was better as far as McIntosh need be mentioned. Some may disagree but the choir, well,.... they all heard it before. I've watched some really smart guys on here ride the massive power train as in high powered amps, of McIntosh, soon as they got to an exit, the brakes came on & the really nice coloured meters left the building...
 
AVphile said:
...Sunlight software update to his PS Audio Directstream DAC..
Click to expand...

My hunch there is the problem. I vaguely recall in the PS forums that something whacky can happen in rare cases with this update, consistent with your observations. Again, testing my memory, the solution was to roll-back to an earlier version software and do the Sunlight upgrade again.
 
a.wayne said:
So Serge,

No way to seriously hear if One amp sounds differently from another unless we bench test it ?

:rolleyes:

Sad to see such an iconic brand go down in flames like this , their along way off the MC3500 set the world standard trajectory of the 1960’s ..

I think our new world reviewer “Jay” gave them midfi packup and run status as they never made his top 10 American made amp list , which only had 3 amps listed .. :)

Jay’s food Hamburger rating analogies would put this “Big Mac” on the 1.00 value menu ..

:roflmao:

Regards
Click to expand...

That's right. How do you hear "excellence"? If the amp is to be excellent, it needs to get out of the way of music and never add any flavor and color. Same with other components actually. Isn't that the idea of High End Audio? Or have we become Alchemists playing with ingredients looking for Fool's Gold while throwing fists full of dollars at the "laboratories" in our homes in the never ending quest for some "perfection". Perfection which is neither quantifiable nor can ever be agreed upon by two different parties due to our own physiological differences.
 
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