CD is the perfect format...according to Steve

+1

So far, I have no heard computer audio that makes me want to embrace it; there's also far too much drama until you get it working properly -- beyond half-assed quality --, I've seen this in my friends' experiences. My transport either beat computer audio in shootouts (less grain, better instrument separation) or was at least equal. I still spin CDs, and CDs only. It's the format for all my music. For enjoying vinyl, I do that on my friends' systems.

Talking about connection from the transport to the DAC making a difference: My MIT AES/EBU cable is as expensive as my transport, and only a bit cheaper than my DAC. I've heard a shootout of that cable with others in a friend's system, the MIT won.


Agree. From a purist standpoint ; there are too many variables in computer audio but yes there is the convienance factor that is very appealing.

When will start seeing audiophile network switches ? If we haven’t already. Etc ; noisy WiFi networks in the home also play a big in distortion.

Anyone who believes the compact disc and physical media is a dead format.

Needs to listen to the Spectral Sdr-4000 Sv.
 
That is way to broad a question. Digital is all about implementation. A detailed description of all componants including cabling is required to better understand the performance differences.

I don't doubt the truth of what you say, however as far as components, cabling, etc. The only mechanical difference between streaming from my local library and streaming from Tidal is that Tidal is coming through my cable modem first. From there it goes through pretty much the same signal path as my local library. Anyways it just doesn't seem to sound as good. But to be honest, I have not done an A/B test .... yet !
 
I don't doubt the truth of what you say, however as far as components, cabling, etc. The only mechanical difference between streaming from my local library and streaming from Tidal is that Tidal is coming through my cable modem first. From there it goes through pretty much the same signal path as my local library. Anyways it just doesn't seem to sound as good. But to be honest, I have not done an A/B test .... yet !

I believe my NAS sounds better than my Tidal, but it's close. I could just be wishing it so. Is your NAS on a linear PS. Is the Modem. Do you have music internal to your server. Is the internal music drive on its own separate linear PS. Is your server even on a PS, or is it all going to a Rendu of some sort. There are so many variables.
 
I believe my NAS sounds better than my Tidal, but it's close. I could just be wishing it so. Is your NAS on a linear PS. Is the Modem. Do you have music internal to your server. Is the internal music drive on its own separate linear PS. Is your server even on a PS, or is it all going to a Rendu of some sort. There are so many variables.

So I have a Roon core running on a 2013 MacPro. All of my music is on a USB SSD directly connected to the MacPro, no special PS on the Mac, SSD gets power from USB. Cable Modem is Comcast, no special PS. My DAC is an MSB Discrete DAC with new Renderer Module. All ethernet is hardwired. I really need to do an A/B Test between TIDAL and my library before I say anything else, because one of the variables you mention is me.
 
For me is Simple: Because for the price of 2CDs ($20) I can have 30 million at my disposal.

Perspective
Streaming sure is convenient, but it is an entirely irresponsible way to consume music. It has been shown time and time again that artists' royalties on streams are a minuscule fraction of what they receive on physical product and traditional airplay...I stream to sample, but if I hear something I like, I go out of my way to buy a physical product (preferably directly from the artist or label) and/or see the artist in concert.

The dismal compensation provided by streaming services will likely put full-time artists and labels out of business in another generation or two. I certainly see it in my own royalty statements: If I get 10,000 streams, I make as much as I do from selling SIX CDs for $10 each at gigs. That's ridiculous. Song and album downloads provide pretty good money, but those are fading in the face of streaming. Fortunately touring income has stayed strong, and film/tv placements are still an option, but streaming decimates an entire revenue stream that was once pretty fruitful...

So...streaming is convenient, but it comes at a price to artists, songwriters, and labels. Keep that in mind
.


Perspective #2
Thanks...I just really want people to be aware that musicians, songwriters, and labels see a lot less revenue from streaming. Consumers should be aware of how their choices affect the people they think they are supporting.

I don't want to get too into the weeds, but we usually charge between $10 and $15 per CD to consumers. Of course, our profit depends on what we put into it. If it was a release we made at home engineering ourselves and pressing up ourselves, our initial outlay is greater but our profit margin is larger. We don't share the revenue (from streaming or physical) with anyone. For the label titles, we got an advance to make the record, and we buy copies from the label at about $2.50 each. That money -- along with other revenue associated with the album -- goes to recouping that advance. We keep the profit from selling the physical copies at shows.

For streaming, each stream rakes in a sweet .004 - .006 cents. The label takes 100% of that until the record is recouped, then we split it. Both of our label-funded releases have recouped, so we see some money from streaming, but nowhere near what we see from physical sales (the proceeds of which we also split 50/50 after recouping). Sometimes instead of taking a cash payout, we take the money owed to us in the form of CDs/LPs that we can then sell on the road and make more cash.

I'm sure someone who has never had to make a living from making music will pipe up and tell us we are idiots and signed a bad deal, but it's actually quite beneficial: We get an advance to make records (not much -- we record very cheaply), we get publicity and promotional support, we get the cachet of being on a cool label, and, honestly, a lot of labels aren't nearly as generous as a to offer a 50/50 split.

 
Thank you Swisstrips. You just made me feel better about the several hundred dollars I've recently spent on DSD downloads :). Its all been classical music so I'm not sure about artist impact in that genre.

Streaming really has greatly reduced the the financial burden associated with listening to music. It is too bad it comes at the artists expense.
 
Thank you Swisstrips. You just made me feel better about the several hundred dollars I've recently spent on DSD downloads :). Its all been classical music so I'm not sure about artist impact in that genre.

Streaming really has greatly reduced the the financial burden associated with listening to music. It is too bad it comes at the artists expense.

Well it’s a perspective. The streaming model just doesn’t sit all that well with me (in its current form).

However, I do use Spotify (paid family acct) like many others do, for discovering/car, but purchase items I like. I don’t stream in my main rig which accts for almost all of my listening.

That’s why I love Bandcamp and use it for many of my purchases.

The MQA BS, which IT IS and is utter nonsense, isn’t helping. I won’t go there.

Everyone has their preferences and choice, just be informed/educated [emoji106]
 
Thank you Swisstrips. You just made me feel better about the several hundred dollars I've recently spent on DSD downloads :). Its all been classical music so I'm not sure about artist impact in that genre.

Streaming really has greatly reduced the the financial burden associated with listening to music. It is too bad it comes at the artists expense.

Why choose, we can have both...I do!
For absolute quality with a tweaked server with proper byte structure, I can reduce jitter to infinitesmal status...cant do that with internet streaming, as the Net itself introduces some jitter. However, its more convenient as it still has great SQ and you can find lots of unfamiliar new music. With my 16TB I have physical possession in case the "lights" go out and I am not left stranded.

Loving the flexibility of both and yeah, I still have CDs and a few vinyl albums of my favourite go to stuff.
 
I have found that ripping my SACDs and CDs and playing them from my custom built server sounds considerably better then spinning them in my Oppo. Several audio club friends have also stated the same. I believe it has to do with being able to run them through Roon and HQPlayer and being decoded with my T+A DAC (up-sampled) versus what is in the Oppo (ESS 9018). Also more stabled source, no moving parts such as spinning a disc.
 
My server uses dedicated SLC OS drive with optimized byte structure (defractionalized memory) to drastically improve clock function...by a factor of over 200. That is just step 1. I have many other hardware and software tweaks and its still WIP.
 
I have found that ripping my SACDs and CDs and playing them from my custom built server sounds considerably better then spinning them in my Oppo. Several audio club friends have also stated the same. I believe it has to do with being able to run them through Roon and HQPlayer and beign decoded with my T+A DAC versus what is in the Oppo (ESS 9018).

Ok, comparing apples with oranges. I have compared computer vs. transport on same DAC, cables. Apples to apples. Transport won, or was at least as good, depending on computer configuration.

Also more stabled source, no moving parts such as spinning a disc.

Theory talk. Reminds me of "Perfect Sound Forever". We know how that went for several decades, at least until recently when the true potential of CD finally seems to come through.
 
I have found that ripping my SACDs and CDs and playing them from my custom built server sounds considerably better then spinning them in my Oppo. Several audio club friends have also stated the same. I believe it has to do with being able to run them through Roon and HQPlayer and beign decoded with my T+A DAC versus what is in the Oppo (ESS 9018). Also more stabled source, no moving parts such as spinning a disc.

Ok, comparing apples with oranges. I have compared computer vs. transport on same DAC, cables. Apples to apples. Transport won, or was at least as good, depending on computer configuration.



Theory talk. Reminds me of "Perfect Sound Forever". We know how that went for several decades, at least until recently when the true potential of CD finally seems to come through.

Al, I just looked at your profile. You have a very nice CD player, but you don't note any server, unless the MIT is one, but I rook it to be a cable. If your serving music via an Apple laptop to a schitt DAC and getting comparable results to the Moon CD transport?????? My experience has shown the performance gains from a real server vs a laptop are huge. More than changing a DAC. Did I miss a piece of gear your using?
 
Al, I just looked at your profile. You have a very nice CD player, but you don't note any server, unless the MIT is one, but I rook it to be a cable. If your serving music via an Apple laptop to a schitt DAC and getting comparable results to the Moon CD transport?????? My experience has shown the performance gains from a real server vs a laptop are huge. More than changing a DAC. Did I miss a piece of gear your using?

The comparison was in the system of someone else who has worked on his server solutions for years. Ethernet, no USB.

But honestly, if I'd personally look for a server I'd go with a top-level Baetis with AES/EBU output. This might beat my transport, but it comes at a considerable expense. When in come to computer audio, I want to do it right or not at all.
 
The comparison was in the system of someone else who has worked on his server solutions for years.

I get my new server in a couple weeks. Maybe I will haul it with my DAC to a friends house and see how it compares to his Simaudio Moon CD. I myself have been curious. More so how my digital will stack up to his vinyl. His vinyl is A+. As in better than pretty much any source I have ever hears. Honestly I think it will kill my digital, but I want to know.
 
Ok, comparing apples with oranges. I have compared computer vs. transport on same DAC, cables. Apples to apples. Transport won, or was at least as good, depending on computer configuration.



Theory talk. Reminds me of "Perfect Sound Forever". We know how that went for several decades, at least until recently when the true potential of CD finally seems to come through.

Again, as I stated I was purely speculating. I also assume if I could afford a top end transport, such as a dCS for example, the results would be different. However, audio club members, including some who are huge vinylphiles hear exactly what I do. From my server ripped SACDs and CDs sound a ton better then being spun on my Oppo. I do not claim to have the answers, I do not claim to have a high end transport, I do not. I reserve my Oppo for one purpose only (which means it will never ever be replaced).

However in my system the ripped versions sound a ton better then the SACD versions. Both connected to my pre-amp with what I consider high quality XLR cables. Therefore my conclusion is that the difference is probably that the files are being up-sampled through Roon/HQPlayer and using the T+A DAC compared to the Oppo DAC. But I do not claim to be an expert, only report the results that me and several friends hear.
 
Again, as I stated I was purely speculating. I also assume if I could afford a top end transport, such as a dCS for example, the results would be different. However, audio club members, including some who are huge vinylphiles hear exactly what I do. From my server ripped SACDs and CDs sound a ton better then being spun on my Oppo. I do not claim to have the answers, I do not claim to have a high end transport, I do not. I reserve my Oppo for one purpose only (which means it will never ever be replaced).

However in my system the ripped versions sound a ton better then the SACD versions. Both connected to my pre-amp with what I consider high quality XLR cables. Therefore my conclusion is that the difference is probably that the files are being up-sampled through Roon/HQPlayer and using the T+A DAC compared to the Oppo DAC. But I do not claim to be an expert, only report the results that me and several friends hear.

My friend where we did the comparisons has an Oppo too, and it wasn't as good as the Simaudio Moon transport. I hope your friend's Simaudio Moon is the new one that I have, older models may perform less.
 
I've spent the last hour A/B ing songs between the Tidal MQA version of The Doors LA Woman and the DSD64 version I purchased from Acousticsounds. I can safely say that, despite a 10db level difference (which I adjust for), I can not tell one from the other. Next I need to try the neon MQA Tidal version... my money is on same result.
 
Perspective
Streaming sure is convenient, but it is an entirely irresponsible way to consume music. It has been shown time and time again that artists' royalties on streams are a minuscule fraction of what they receive on physical product and traditional airplay...I stream to sample, but if I hear something I like, I go out of my way to buy a physical product (preferably directly from the artist or label) and/or see the artist in concert.

The dismal compensation provided by streaming services will likely put full-time artists and labels out of business in another generation or two. I certainly see it in my own royalty statements: If I get 10,000 streams, I make as much as I do from selling SIX CDs for $10 each at gigs. That's ridiculous. Song and album downloads provide pretty good money, but those are fading in the face of streaming. Fortunately touring income has stayed strong, and film/tv placements are still an option, but streaming decimates an entire revenue stream that was once pretty fruitful...

So...streaming is convenient, but it comes at a price to artists, songwriters, and labels. Keep that in mind
.


Perspective #2
Thanks...I just really want people to be aware that musicians, songwriters, and labels see a lot less revenue from streaming. Consumers should be aware of how their choices affect the people they think they are supporting.

I don't want to get too into the weeds, but we usually charge between $10 and $15 per CD to consumers. Of course, our profit depends on what we put into it. If it was a release we made at home engineering ourselves and pressing up ourselves, our initial outlay is greater but our profit margin is larger. We don't share the revenue (from streaming or physical) with anyone. For the label titles, we got an advance to make the record, and we buy copies from the label at about $2.50 each. That money -- along with other revenue associated with the album -- goes to recouping that advance. We keep the profit from selling the physical copies at shows.

For streaming, each stream rakes in a sweet .004 - .006 cents. The label takes 100% of that until the record is recouped, then we split it. Both of our label-funded releases have recouped, so we see some money from streaming, but nowhere near what we see from physical sales (the proceeds of which we also split 50/50 after recouping). Sometimes instead of taking a cash payout, we take the money owed to us in the form of CDs/LPs that we can then sell on the road and make more cash.

I'm sure someone who has never had to make a living from making music will pipe up and tell us we are idiots and signed a bad deal, but it's actually quite beneficial: We get an advance to make records (not much -- we record very cheaply), we get publicity and promotional support, we get the cachet of being on a cool label, and, honestly, a lot of labels aren't nearly as generous as a to offer a 50/50 split.


I can see your point but you left out other perspectives. For example: Perspective #4: Someone will just buy a used CD somewhere and pay nothing (zero) to the artists.

Change is upon us whether we like it or not.
 
I've spent the last hour A/B ing songs between the Tidal MQA version of The Doors LA Woman and the DSD64 version I purchased from Acousticsounds. I can safely say that, despite a 10db level difference (which I adjust for), I can not tell one from the other. Next I need to try the neon MQA Tidal version... my money is on same result.

I have the DSD64 download of LA Woman (actually either a download or SACD of every Doors album)(Actually I lied, I just checked and LA Woman is one of the two Doors albums that I have the SACD version, ripped to DSF). I do not feel that LA Woman is a great test :)... (Sorry, just my opinion)... however I have read several times that DSD64 is not the best way to compare DSD. I can't honestly say I completely understood the article(s), but it was something to do with the top end noise being in the audio frequency range????

The point that was being made, to truly understand what DSD can do a minimal of DSD128 (better yet DSD256 or especially DSD512) is required. This is where HQPlayer really shines and a DAC that can handle this level, especially with specialized 1-bit decoders (not ESS, etc.). Talking with Ted Smith directly, this is one of the points he was making, to get around this potential issue everything going into their DACs are up-sampled to 20x DSD and then converted back down to DSD128 to be sent to the DAC to be converted to analog. For them HQPlayer is not considered an advantage, for other DACs, such as my T+A it is huge. (BTW this is one of the reasons that I sold my Benchmark DAC, they choose to limit their DACs to DSD64, even though the chip they use, ESS9028, is capable of DSD256...

I know when this level digital is being considered, on a somewhat affordable system, the difference is great and far superior to MQA. But this is not able to be streamed from online services because of bandwidth considerations. One of many reasons that I prefer owning my music rather then renting it from an online service.
 
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