Except that it cost you a super-expensive USB-to-SPDIF converter to barely equal the stock USB port in the back of a winbox.
Imagine the BADA on the winbox...
CAPS 3.0 v. Mac Mini plus Berkley USB
- Thread starter the professor
- Start date
Except that it cost you a super-expensive USB-to-SPDIF converter to barely equal the stock USB port in the back of a winbox.
Imagine the BADA on the winbox...
I am thinking about it; but right now the consulting part keeps me busy, and with the builds I do I am able to keep the quality at a very high level.
I do not like storage in the playback box. No bueno. Spinning HDDs = better off elsewhere.
the professor
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the professor
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- #24
Thought I would try to share my various findings along the way of trying to answer my own question.
System used:
D'Agostino preamp and 2 Momentum Stereo amps using one for each channel powering Raidho D1s and stereo Wilson Watch Dog subwoofers. Interconnects, speakers cables and power cords are Shunyata Anaconda Zitrons. Everything except power amps and computers were connected to a Shunyata Triton/Typhon on a dedicated circuit. The computers were plugged into a separate electrical circuit. The power amps were plugged directly into the wall on a dedicated circuit. Components are on Naim Fraim stands and the amps are on SRA amp stands.
The DAC was an EMM Labs Dac2x.
The contenders:
1. Apple Mini (mid 2012)
2. Apple Mini w a Berkley Audio USB using AES into the EMM
3. Apple Air w 756 g flash drive (2013)
4. Apple Air w the Berkley USB
5. A Computer Audiophile CAPS 3.0 Carbon built by Small Green Computer Company
6. The CAPS w the Berkley USB
7. The CAPS w the Red Wine Audio Black Lightning battery power supply
8. The CAPS w the Red Wine Audio Black Lightning battery power supply w the Berkley USB
9. Naim Unitiserve using BNC spdif into the EMM. The Unitiserve is a single purpose computer that Naim puts together to rip, manage and then send the digital signal by spdif and also works as a UPnP server for streamers.
10. Naim NDS served by the Unitiserve UPnP. The NDS is a streamer that includes an internal isolated DAC. I used the NDS with two Naim 555PS power supplies. One power supply powering the analog portion and one power supply powering the digital section. Only one power supply is required, and various power supply's are available to use with it.
Comparisons:
When I used the Berkley on the Mini, it improved the sound by a pretty good margin as in enough to be very hard to go back to going without. It had a larger but still believable sound stage with more resolution in a good rhythmic way not a technical way. With the Air and CAPS, I felt it was better when the Berkley was used and when using the CAPS w the Lightning battery pack I felt the Berkley actually got in the way somewhat.
The Lightning battery definitely improved the CAPS. Not quite as much improvement as the Berkley had when added to the Mini but a bunch better. It doubles the cost of the CAPS but worth it.
The Air is better than the Mini by themselves, but they are a push when both use the Berkley. So I used the Mini w the Berkley in most of my listening.
The answer to my original question is: Drum roll please. . . . The CAPS w Lightning battery is better than the Mini w Berkley but not by a large margin.
So my initial goal of a no windows solution was a fail with the addition of the Berkley to the Mini. BUT I did find a solution! I decided that I would break down and buy the Naim Unitiserve that some friends had recommended so highly for the last year or so. I hadn't bought it before because I just couldn't get past the part that is just a computer in a Naim style box for over 4 times the price at $4,000. Sigh
However -- The Unitiserve going to the EMM is right up there with the CAPS w Lightning. I'll would give the edge to the Unitiserve but its close enough so I'll call it a push. It does cost double of the CAPS w Lightning, but in all fairness, the Unitiserve does provide a pretty idiot proof way to get bit perfect rips and NO WINDOWS, so for a simple elegant solution it's an ok value. The CAPS is no doubt the best value if you are semi computer literate and to be honest, even for an anti windows guy, it's not that bad to set it up to work great.
The best sound was Naim NDS served by the Unitiserve and it is definitely better than any of the above ways using the EMM. Part of this is probably the DAC section and power supply, but I wonder if streaming isnt part of the reason too.
I was actually surprised about this outcome. Naim, in general, sounds great when in a complete Naim system and usually doesn't sound very good at all when used with other companies components. I was expecting the NDS to sound better w the Naim pre and power and the EMM to sound best in just about any other system. Goes to show you - ya just have to listen.
System used:
D'Agostino preamp and 2 Momentum Stereo amps using one for each channel powering Raidho D1s and stereo Wilson Watch Dog subwoofers. Interconnects, speakers cables and power cords are Shunyata Anaconda Zitrons. Everything except power amps and computers were connected to a Shunyata Triton/Typhon on a dedicated circuit. The computers were plugged into a separate electrical circuit. The power amps were plugged directly into the wall on a dedicated circuit. Components are on Naim Fraim stands and the amps are on SRA amp stands.
The DAC was an EMM Labs Dac2x.
The contenders:
1. Apple Mini (mid 2012)
2. Apple Mini w a Berkley Audio USB using AES into the EMM
3. Apple Air w 756 g flash drive (2013)
4. Apple Air w the Berkley USB
5. A Computer Audiophile CAPS 3.0 Carbon built by Small Green Computer Company
6. The CAPS w the Berkley USB
7. The CAPS w the Red Wine Audio Black Lightning battery power supply
8. The CAPS w the Red Wine Audio Black Lightning battery power supply w the Berkley USB
9. Naim Unitiserve using BNC spdif into the EMM. The Unitiserve is a single purpose computer that Naim puts together to rip, manage and then send the digital signal by spdif and also works as a UPnP server for streamers.
10. Naim NDS served by the Unitiserve UPnP. The NDS is a streamer that includes an internal isolated DAC. I used the NDS with two Naim 555PS power supplies. One power supply powering the analog portion and one power supply powering the digital section. Only one power supply is required, and various power supply's are available to use with it.
Comparisons:
When I used the Berkley on the Mini, it improved the sound by a pretty good margin as in enough to be very hard to go back to going without. It had a larger but still believable sound stage with more resolution in a good rhythmic way not a technical way. With the Air and CAPS, I felt it was better when the Berkley was used and when using the CAPS w the Lightning battery pack I felt the Berkley actually got in the way somewhat.
The Lightning battery definitely improved the CAPS. Not quite as much improvement as the Berkley had when added to the Mini but a bunch better. It doubles the cost of the CAPS but worth it.
The Air is better than the Mini by themselves, but they are a push when both use the Berkley. So I used the Mini w the Berkley in most of my listening.
The answer to my original question is: Drum roll please. . . . The CAPS w Lightning battery is better than the Mini w Berkley but not by a large margin.
So my initial goal of a no windows solution was a fail with the addition of the Berkley to the Mini. BUT I did find a solution! I decided that I would break down and buy the Naim Unitiserve that some friends had recommended so highly for the last year or so. I hadn't bought it before because I just couldn't get past the part that is just a computer in a Naim style box for over 4 times the price at $4,000. Sigh
However -- The Unitiserve going to the EMM is right up there with the CAPS w Lightning. I'll would give the edge to the Unitiserve but its close enough so I'll call it a push. It does cost double of the CAPS w Lightning, but in all fairness, the Unitiserve does provide a pretty idiot proof way to get bit perfect rips and NO WINDOWS, so for a simple elegant solution it's an ok value. The CAPS is no doubt the best value if you are semi computer literate and to be honest, even for an anti windows guy, it's not that bad to set it up to work great.
The best sound was Naim NDS served by the Unitiserve and it is definitely better than any of the above ways using the EMM. Part of this is probably the DAC section and power supply, but I wonder if streaming isnt part of the reason too.
I was actually surprised about this outcome. Naim, in general, sounds great when in a complete Naim system and usually doesn't sound very good at all when used with other companies components. I was expecting the NDS to sound better w the Naim pre and power and the EMM to sound best in just about any other system. Goes to show you - ya just have to listen.
Very interesting! Thanks so much for sharing! No Windows + better sound = heaven!
dlb2
New member
Thanks for doing all of this. I wouldn't have been able to keep everything straight! Did the Mini and the Air use the same OS?
the professor
Well-known member
- Thread Author
- #27
yes, same up to date latest OS. computers doing nothing else but play music, isolate the USB etc etc. I tried to do the same care with both.
and I used the latest build of Jriver for Mac. There are certainly differences in the player used, but since Jriver was used on the CAPS, I went ahead and used it on the Macs.
and I used the latest build of Jriver for Mac. There are certainly differences in the player used, but since Jriver was used on the CAPS, I went ahead and used it on the Macs.
dlb2
New member
Thanks Jock. That's the way to do it. Consistency across the board.
mdkim
New member
Jock:
Thanks for the write-up. I'm struggling to find the next step - hopefully forward - for my digital playback and you've just given me more food for thought.
Thanks for the write-up. I'm struggling to find the next step - hopefully forward - for my digital playback and you've just given me more food for thought.
asiufy
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Always wondered about the Naim products... Good to see they're actually pretty good! I'll investigate too...
Now, if you're willing to go back to the Mac, you should try it with Audirvana+. JRiver on the Mac is far from what it is on Windows, AFAIK.
If you can, give it a try, and compare them again. That way you'll be using what's best on each platform. I think it's fair that way...
thanks,
alexandre
Now, if you're willing to go back to the Mac, you should try it with Audirvana+. JRiver on the Mac is far from what it is on Windows, AFAIK.
If you can, give it a try, and compare them again. That way you'll be using what's best on each platform. I think it's fair that way...
thanks,
alexandre
the professor
Well-known member
- Thread Author
- #31
I understand what you mean. Quite honestly, I got started and then there was what seemed like a endless number of ways to set it up that it got to be overwhelming. Talk about the phrase "everything makes a difference".
I did compare Amara, Audirvana+ and Jriver somewhat and there were differences but no absolute winner on the vast majority of the music. It depended on what song I listened to, to what program I liked best. So I got to the point of choosing one so I could move on.
I did compare Amara, Audirvana+ and Jriver somewhat and there were differences but no absolute winner on the vast majority of the music. It depended on what song I listened to, to what program I liked best. So I got to the point of choosing one so I could move on.
asindc
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Jock,
Thanks for taking time to post your findings. As I alluded to earlier, I am reading this thread with great interest because I just ordered a BADA USB converter for my Mac Mini. Your finding that CAPS is superior to your ears is consistent with the findings of others, but I chose the Mac Mini for convenience sake. I also find it interesting that you didn't find much difference in software playback programs. If JRiver was more stable on Mac I might have tried it by now because of its interface, but I am satisfied with Amarra (even with the bugs), Audirvana+, and Decibel for now. There might be a time when I try the CAPS, but as long as there is room for improvement in my current Mac Mini setup I'll go that route instead. Now that you've answer your own question by choosing a closed system in the Naim, are you curious about other turn-key servers, such as the Aurender models?
the professor
Well-known member
- Thread Author
- #33
Being an Apple guy, I would not go with the CAPS, if I had the Mac Mini w BADA. It's not enough better to have the extra hassle. I've read about the people that have modified the Mini inside it and have stated improvements, interesting, but not something that I want to do myself.
Good question. I've toyed with the idea of getting the Aurender for a while, especially with all of the great reviews it has received. But even in its reviews, as I read them, it isn't night and day better than the CAPS. So I probably won't get it.
If I hadn't already owned the 2 Naim 555PS power supplies for my CD player for the last 10 years which is 2/3 of the cost of the NDS system, I probably wouldn't have ever gone with the Naim NDS streamer. The NDS system is a $35,000 digital front end and especially the way things are improving, it's too much money. As fast as everything is changing, I'll bet in the next 2 years there will be a system w DAC under $10,000 maybe less, that will be better than anything available now.
I will continue to use my Mac Mini and BADA and play with various things. For example, I just received an iFi USB power thingy I ordered, so i'll play with it next week when I have some time.
Let us know how you like your BADA when you get it and it breaks in a little.
Good question. I've toyed with the idea of getting the Aurender for a while, especially with all of the great reviews it has received. But even in its reviews, as I read them, it isn't night and day better than the CAPS. So I probably won't get it.
If I hadn't already owned the 2 Naim 555PS power supplies for my CD player for the last 10 years which is 2/3 of the cost of the NDS system, I probably wouldn't have ever gone with the Naim NDS streamer. The NDS system is a $35,000 digital front end and especially the way things are improving, it's too much money. As fast as everything is changing, I'll bet in the next 2 years there will be a system w DAC under $10,000 maybe less, that will be better than anything available now.
I will continue to use my Mac Mini and BADA and play with various things. For example, I just received an iFi USB power thingy I ordered, so i'll play with it next week when I have some time.
Let us know how you like your BADA when you get it and it breaks in a little.
asindc
Member
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- 784
Will do.
sharkmouth
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the professor
Well-known member
So then you must like the new iTrashcan, err... Mac Pro?
"Ease of operation..." = another massive fallacy.
And I'd take a Streacom case at full width any day over a Mini, which looks like a short-bus version of an Xbox or Nintendo product. At least then it looks like it belongs in an equipment rack that houses stuff like your signature... D'ags and EMM, etc... sheesh! That is serious big-boy stuff and you are using a lego-piece to feed it!
I do agree we have a tremendous amount of <legal> fun with this hobby, and the debate it can spark is also enjoyable.
"Ease of operation..." = another massive fallacy.
And I'd take a Streacom case at full width any day over a Mini, which looks like a short-bus version of an Xbox or Nintendo product. At least then it looks like it belongs in an equipment rack that houses stuff like your signature... D'ags and EMM, etc... sheesh! That is serious big-boy stuff and you are using a lego-piece to feed it!
I do agree we have a tremendous amount of <legal> fun with this hobby, and the debate it can spark is also enjoyable.
the professor
Well-known member
- Thread Author
- #39
Na
Not a fan of either of the Mac Pro's looks.
I personally think that any ease of operation for somebody between apple and pc is from what they are used to using. Either is fine, but learning the other one is a hassle. And in my case, it would mean I would need 2 computers and having 2 computers instead of 1 is also somewhat a hassle. No matter what kind of OS is used.
And your are right. Not having any computer in the equipment rack is another advantage to streaming. The NAS etc is in a different part of the house. And lets face it, without Windows UPnP protocol there wouldn't be streaming.
Not a fan of either of the Mac Pro's looks.
I personally think that any ease of operation for somebody between apple and pc is from what they are used to using. Either is fine, but learning the other one is a hassle. And in my case, it would mean I would need 2 computers and having 2 computers instead of 1 is also somewhat a hassle. No matter what kind of OS is used.
And your are right. Not having any computer in the equipment rack is another advantage to streaming. The NAS etc is in a different part of the house. And lets face it, without Windows UPnP protocol there wouldn't be streaming.
I love the simplicity of the Marantz, Linn and Naim streamers (among others).