Bookself speakers for shindo amps

Using other gear I've had stuffed into various corners of my house. I'll be going back to my Musical Affairs speakers for a bit. Probably with a Wavelength 45 amp. I'll also be moving in the near future so who knows? One thing I can say is that downsizing feels good. I think I was actually at a point where my enjoyment of the hobby actually significantly decreased due to my investment in time and $.


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I bet the 45 amp is pretty sweet. I have one and love it.


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kev313 said:
Now you see what you did there is you made the assumption that 1.) the amps all work at 8ohms / have 8 ohm taps and 2.) Shindo designed them to be used that way.

We have no proof of that.

Then you implied that the reps had some hidden agenda at play by not recommending 8ohm speakers.

No evidence of that.

In fact, these are passionate guys who want nothing more than for people to experience Shindo at its best. They'd rather you buy a used altec than a new pair of the wrong speakers to use with Shindo. Theirs included. Trust me when I say the approach has likely cost them more than it made them.

That is very true. When I had Wilson speakers the distribtor for Shindo was not keen on me using them with a Shindo amp. He wasent interested in doing business until I purchased speakers with an easier load. They are real passionate guys who believe in synergy and system matching, preferably with all shindo based components and speakers. Thanks for all the speaker suggestions.
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lowens said:
kev313 said:
Now you see what you did there is you made the assumption that 1.) the amps all work at 8ohms / have 8 ohm taps and 2.) Shindo designed them to be used that way.

We have no proof of that.

Then you implied that the reps had some hidden agenda at play by not recommending 8ohm speakers.

No evidence of that.

In fact, these are passionate guys who want nothing more than for people to experience Shindo at its best. They'd rather you buy a used altec than a new pair of the wrong speakers to use with Shindo. Theirs included. Trust me when I say the approach has likely cost them more than it made them.

That is very true. When I had Wilson speakers the distribtor for Shindo was not keen on me using them with a Shindo amp. He wasent interested in doing business until I purchased speakers with an easier load. They are real passionate
guys who believe in synergy and system matching, preferably with all shindo based components and speakers. Thanks for all the speaker suggestions.
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Call Matt @ PP or Danny @ phonographe.ca: Ask about the 15 Ohm Falcons. I heard Omega was not a good match. No direct experience. Nice to have you back on the forums. Keep us posted!
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Since the Canadian Omega distributor is in Osoyoos, BC not too far away finding out if the Omega's work or not could be determined. Or call Rob or Louis and see if they have had any experience with Shindo. No reason they wouldn't tell you what they know and better than "I read it on the internet."

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kev313 said:
Someone else, but I have sold most of my gear, including my speakers.
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You sold your Shindo gear already?
You have made such a mystery to it, and now all gone?
You must have been loose cash in large quantities. The prices asked on the net are often phantasy prices. In real money, this companie sells for much less. There was your Shindo 604- speaker for sale lately, sold for approx. 5000$. Same model as yours. New they cost in the US a leg and an arm. Insane money is asked from those luxurious US Shindo dealers, because they want to make the big buck with the Shindo hype. Sell your used gear and you become nearly nothing. And thats a fact, the sale history of some Shindo gear on ebay and other sites reveals it. Shindo Petrus sales 2nd hand for approx. 10K$, no joke. Not bad for this model, but surely a horrible price for the seller.
And now, you are fine without Shindo? Thats some thing I will never understand, when using Shindo everybody is making the big wave, and after that, life still goes on and on...
 
I'm afraid you don't know what your talking about. I sold a VR for more than 10k before. The 604 that sold from HiFiDo for that price was an error by the salesman. It was quite the controversy. As to losing money, yes, that applies to ... well...anything you buy new and sell used. My % loss was about the same as I've ever experienced in the world of audio. As to the retail pricing, to be honest, I agree. It is high. Welcome to "high end" audio. As to my motivation for selling, it was a combination of factors. It's just audio, man. Life goes on. It really no big shake. Christ almighty. Read a book or something. Go outside. Play a sport. Get off the forums. Good lord. It's audio.


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Walter said:
Maybe there was an error in one sale of Shindo, but never on ALL sales of Shindo.
I agree, audio is (or should be at least) a healthy, joufull and just a small part of the whole life. But some people make a big mystery of it, because with a little religious mystery and High End woodoo sales just starting to grow bigger and bigger and a cult always attracts some people.
So what about all the mysteries you made of your ex-Shindo 604? You could see them on HifiDo inside and out, with all the details attached. And that happens with everything mystified, it takes only some time and the secrets were revealed.
Serious Hifi and professional audio comanies like WE, Klangfilm and others never made a mystery of their products or re-label false Telefunken ECL94S tubes that never existed.
They just build serious and excellent gears that had its price then and now.
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Who made a mystery out of it? Look, I don't get hung up on whatever the mystical elements are alleged to be. I do find that Shindo sounds great in an all Shindo system. I've had Shindo amps with other speakers and it was not so hot.

That's my experience. Paid for with my money.

As far as the speakers go, you are preaching to the choir. As a former owner, I find the prices to be outrageously high. Yes, there is not much there there to a non FC 604. Even to the field coil. I don't get the price. I don't get it at all. And the cabinet is as plain as can be with a construction quality that is inferior to Klipsch. Does it make it sound better? Don't know. But it sounds pretty good. To the extent that there are mysteries, you have the crossover, the field coil conversion, and the power supply. Not unlike any other speaker in many regards I suppose. But hey, it sounds like you have a problem with Shindo. Take it up with them. It sounds great. It also costs a lot. At least here in the US. I've heard the same rumors as everyone else about the high markup with one friend telling me that the original big Latour cost closer to 10k in Japan 15 years ago. Well, that's 15 years ago. And in Japan. I don't know. I do know that it costs money to import speakers to the US and to develop from scratch a business with a network of people who are there to assist customers. I never had an issue that the Shindo guys could not fix. And I never had to hassle with shipping or duties. They took care of everything. So, yes, it costs a lot. Everyone has to eat. Does it cost too much? Don't know. Sounds like you made your decision.

If you want it to cost less, sorry. If you are angry because you want it and think it should cost less, also sorry. If you are angry because I bought it, sorry. If you are angry because I sold it, sorry.

I'm also sorry that you are mistaken on resale value. The preamps and amps regularly sell for over 50% of their retail cost. 60-65% is typical. More than that and you got lucky. Again, my experience and I have a lot. My experience is in the US only. Can't speak for other markets.


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There is (was?) definitely a strong Shindo following in the U.S., but I never saw it in other parts - especially, ironically, in Asia.

Is the brand kind of fading away now that Ken Shindo has died?

The times I heard Shindo, I loved it. I would love to try the Shindo 300b amp on my Avantgarde horns.


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I don't think Ken really had an impact on the US Shindo side. Other than the obvious of course. The brand is healthy from a product standpoint. They have plenty of designs and more in the pipeline from his son. I have no idea how to measure fading away in an "industry" that probably ranks somewhere below model railroads and a bit above remote control boats on the popularity scale. It's never been a huge brand. They got a big intro to the market back in 04? from 6moons (before 6moons went off the ledge and started covering every guy with a soldering iron in his garage) and get a bounce from time to time with Art Dudley. Some favorable reviews now several years ago from Jack Roberts. But that's it. They don't bring the brand to shows and they don't chase reviews. They clearly don't do a lot of warm and cuddly outreach. As a result, they are perennially off the radar unless there is forum chatter. And that is kind of self defeating because their cold shoulder approach makes so many people mad that much forum talk turns negative.

Maybe it's a marketing approach. Like Jude Law in the Young Pope. Don't know. What I can say for certain is that the Shindo crew is out DGAF'ing while we talk about it. Very nice to like minded people. Very helpful. For those who are not interested in their vision, they have no interest in that person owning Shindo. As simple as that. It doesn't lead to a brand that makes a lot of noise.


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kev313 said:
For those who are not interested in their vision, they have no interest in that person owning Shindo. As simple as that. It doesn't lead to a brand that makes a lot of noise.
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They are simply not able to avoid those customers doing business with them. The cult of Shindo attracts people and forces them to spend substantial money on this gear, just to try out this new audiophile toys. What happens next, with some of this equipment? They fail in composing the "Shindo house sound", maybe by lack of knowledge, maybe by wrong implementation in their own systems. And very quickly after the purchase, those gears pop up in the usual second hand channels for (relatively) low prices to offer.
The other kind of owners thought they had to change someting in their systems from time to time, those are the owners who sell later, but they will sell for sure, maybe it took 5 or 10 years. They have to toy around with this hobby, put in new gear, took old gear out.
And there is a very rare, hardcore crew who made it to the "Shindo sound" and appreciate it so much, that they strongly hold on to this gear and will never change. But that is only a small minority of all the Shindo users. So what to do when a customer comes to the store with deep pockets full of potential money to spend on audio gear? They simply sell to them, not knowing what will happen in the future. Its just a business, man, you know, they are in it for the money to make a living. Just an ordinary salesman crew.
 
Ok. That applies to probably every person and company in business in hifi, if not in sales overall. Point?


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I think of Shindo much like I think of Spectral on the SS side - as a turn-key solution that works for some, doesn't for others. While Shindo prices aren't cheap, its US dealer base allows full credit towards upgrades which makes them hold value.
 
KeithR said:
I think of Shindo much like I think of Spectral on the SS side - as a turn-key solution that works for some, doesn't for others. While Shindo prices aren't cheap, its US dealer base allows full credit towards upgrades which makes them hold value.
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This is true re: the trade in. Although Matt will reduce the % allowed after a period of time. Which is fair. A benefit to the customer.

On the other hand, the economics of that approach always confused me. If you assume that the customer originally bought an item with a cost to dealer price of $2,000, for example, and traded it in for an item with a cost to dealer price of $5,000, I don't see how the dealer makes money on the trade in / new sale unless there is a markup factor of 4.

^That assumes only one person in the chain. I do not know how the distributor influences the cost nor what the distribution costs are other than related to product purchase and import. So, frankly, it's all speculation but it is something to do with my idle moments.


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Those trade in programs are just created to free potential customers from the constant worrying to the upcoming problems selling the newly purchased gear. They create an illusion of safety and excuse of all the worryings in the mind that wants you to prevent from failure decisions in life.
In practice, the programm seldom applies because they are specified and restricted like an insurance contract. What about all the gear on the free second hand market, why doesnt the dealers do a trade in for their equipment? Maybe trade in prices are too low or something other prevents customers to make a trade in work out right?
 
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