AJ Soundfield
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LOL. Good luck understanding your next cel phone call
Blind comparisons of speakers, amps, and DACs...
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TheOctopus
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Short and sweet.
AJ Soundfield
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TheOctopus
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There is a real, quantifiable and measurable and therefore "audible" difference between 128k and Lossless files.
High quality Headphones, High quality DAC and not much luck with ABX.... Much like previous studies involving the recording industry experts, not enthusiasts...
Something that measures very much different, so that it will actually effect the outcome our ears can latch on should be easy, right? What chance do cables that measure the SAME have in terms of perceived difference by our ears then? Or are we going to keep calling cables "that which is immeasurable is magic and should not be discounted"? That's up to each individual I guess and their level of tolerance for what is reasonable and what is not.
High quality Headphones, High quality DAC and not much luck with ABX.... Much like previous studies involving the recording industry experts, not enthusiasts...
Something that measures very much different, so that it will actually effect the outcome our ears can latch on should be easy, right? What chance do cables that measure the SAME have in terms of perceived difference by our ears then? Or are we going to keep calling cables "that which is immeasurable is magic and should not be discounted"? That's up to each individual I guess and their level of tolerance for what is reasonable and what is not.
Really ? I missed that post.......
I see posts that provided some pretty clear evidence / understanding, whatever you would like to call it. By all means constructive rebuttal is good, a good fighter knows how to counter punch. I can tell you as someone that's been around this hobby longer than most, the science usually wins out over the 'kool aid' consumed from the punch bowl !
TheOctopus
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Mike Lavigne
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when pondering participation in ABX or Blind Testing threads....just.....say....no.
for 20 years i've been a judge in our local audio club/local DIY club speaker building contest. it happens every other year. the process is; a room is set up with an amp and source behind a curtain, and 7, to as many as 15 sets of speakers, are run through this process. myself and 2 other judges, have scoring sheets and our own reference cuts. each of us rotate into the sweet spot for samples of our three cuts, we fill out the sheets, then take a break while the speakers are changed.
i keep getting asked back to be a judge for whatever reason. other long term judges include Bruce Brown of Puget Sound Mastering, and the late Winston Ma of FIM recordings.
it's a grueling process to have to concentrate and keep your focus. it's not how to get into the best frame of mind for optimal connection to one's system. it's more like a marathon of force of will. about 6 years into this process they inserted the club speakers as a ringer. i happened to recognize it's character and called it. lucky? maybe.
anyway, the last thing i would ever do would be to apply that process to my own system building decisions. i need to be comfortable, properly fed, no distractions, and my mind free and open....and 100% sighted. if my wife calls me while i'm doing my serious investigations, i stop for that night. and re-boot. come back at it again. btw, i love to do this....on....my.....own....terms. this is one of the most satisfying things i do as a serious music lover/audiophile. it's life affirming. i'm completely in my 'zen' place.
sometimes the result is a matter of preference, sometimes it's too close to call....no difference, sometimes it's a very obvious difference. it helps to have a system that you know and trust, and keep things to one variable. my system is completely isolated in terms of power grid and noise, so those are not variables. my frame of mind is my variable.....and i know it.
i would challenge any DBT advocate to show us your system you put together entirely by blind testing. 100%. describe your process piece by piece. then listen to my system and we will listen to your system.
my guess is that no one has ever actually done this even once. it's all theory and bluster.
for 20 years i've been a judge in our local audio club/local DIY club speaker building contest. it happens every other year. the process is; a room is set up with an amp and source behind a curtain, and 7, to as many as 15 sets of speakers, are run through this process. myself and 2 other judges, have scoring sheets and our own reference cuts. each of us rotate into the sweet spot for samples of our three cuts, we fill out the sheets, then take a break while the speakers are changed.
i keep getting asked back to be a judge for whatever reason. other long term judges include Bruce Brown of Puget Sound Mastering, and the late Winston Ma of FIM recordings.
it's a grueling process to have to concentrate and keep your focus. it's not how to get into the best frame of mind for optimal connection to one's system. it's more like a marathon of force of will. about 6 years into this process they inserted the club speakers as a ringer. i happened to recognize it's character and called it. lucky? maybe.
anyway, the last thing i would ever do would be to apply that process to my own system building decisions. i need to be comfortable, properly fed, no distractions, and my mind free and open....and 100% sighted. if my wife calls me while i'm doing my serious investigations, i stop for that night. and re-boot. come back at it again. btw, i love to do this....on....my.....own....terms. this is one of the most satisfying things i do as a serious music lover/audiophile. it's life affirming. i'm completely in my 'zen' place.
sometimes the result is a matter of preference, sometimes it's too close to call....no difference, sometimes it's a very obvious difference. it helps to have a system that you know and trust, and keep things to one variable. my system is completely isolated in terms of power grid and noise, so those are not variables. my frame of mind is my variable.....and i know it.
i would challenge any DBT advocate to show us your system you put together entirely by blind testing. 100%. describe your process piece by piece. then listen to my system and we will listen to your system.
my guess is that no one has ever actually done this even once. it's all theory and bluster.
If you think this is what I have meant I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.
DBT's of cables, electronics, etc have not yet met the accepted scientific standard of "evidence".
DBT's of well-defined, simple parameters of perception (e.g., least perceptible differences of individual audio characteristics, quantitation of masking) have certainly resulted in a body of evidence.
Take a look at the links in Neko's post to get a better idea of the difficulties involved in designing and performing studies to examine an audio property of relatively low complexity (lossy codecs vs the lossless original) compared to the difficulties involved in differentiating audio electronics.
As I said, while I am professionally involved in examining data, scientific studies and the resulting evidence (or lack of), you obviously are not.
If you have what you feel is a convincing DBT trying and failing to determine differences between audio components (other than transducers), please post a link to the complete article so that it can be analyzed. You are the one hand-waving; put up or s___ up.
a.wayne
Well-known member
Agree Mike,
No one should use ABX testing to select their system but in development work its an essential
Tool, Just another way to note gains vs biases ...
Regards
Part of the problem is that there are a few turds (i.e., products) in the audiophile punch bowl that should be identified and ignored, but if we are going to use metaphors you shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Projecting a little from Mike L's post above, I would love to be able to use science to help me make some decisions about my audio system (or even my TV). Audio DBT's are obviously not the answer for the reasons that have been mentioned in a few posts of this thread. There are probably additional but unknown measurable properties of audio gear that could correlate with perceived audio qualities. A "brain cap" that could decipher and differentiate our emotional responses to different systems or components is another potential approach.
Right at this moment, I think Mike's is the only practical approach, and although the results can be acceptable, the process of obtaining and evaluating components in this way can be a challenge for most of us.
Apparently you didn't look at those links in Neko's post.
Mike Lavigne
Member
agree.
i'm agnostic as to how a gear designer makes decisions. i have close enough relationships to most of the builders of my gear, that i doubt any of them use what we would call "blind" testing (Harmon method).
Blind Listening at Harman International | Stereophile.com
but i think all of them ask for listening feedback from various known people as part of their process. i've been one of those guys (and my system) from time to time. there is no wrong way to design a great performing product. any tool is fair game. or no listening, just measuring is ok too. just deliver the goods.
as far as Harmon products; i own Harmon speakers in my home theater room. a 9.3.6 Dolby Atmos surround system. i'd say they are a bit 'soul-less'......not bad, just not the most 'human' sounding.
The "Golden Ear" audiophiles posting on this thread have concentrated their arguments on the validity of blind tests for high end audio. Since the title of this thread specifically asks about "blind comparisons", it is easy for folks to obviate the bigger elephant in the room: physics.
With the physics that we know today, we are able to send satellites to planet Mars and explore it for afar. Using scientific testing and the physics known today it can be shown that many expensive high-end components perform no better than much lower-priced similar products.
Just as an example, I am not aware of a single high-end cable manufacturer that has shown reproducible scientific proof that their cables perform any different that an inexpensive cable. The same applies to many other categories of high-end equipment. Yet, "Golden Ear" audiophiles keep "hearing" stuff and keep denying physics.
Only after physics has been denied is that blind tests come into play. Blind tests present another opportunity for those "Golden Ears" to prove that they can "hear" stuff that cannot be scientifically measured. Not surprisingly, those same "Golden Ears" will find any possible reason to avoid being "blind tested" and will do all that they can to question the validity of blind testing.
Any folk who claims to have a "Golden Ear" is entitled to believe that he can "hear" whatever he thinks he is hearing (even if that person is an old folk with demonstrable hearing issues). However, physics confirms that not all of those "believes" are true.
With the physics that we know today, we are able to send satellites to planet Mars and explore it for afar. Using scientific testing and the physics known today it can be shown that many expensive high-end components perform no better than much lower-priced similar products.
Just as an example, I am not aware of a single high-end cable manufacturer that has shown reproducible scientific proof that their cables perform any different that an inexpensive cable. The same applies to many other categories of high-end equipment. Yet, "Golden Ear" audiophiles keep "hearing" stuff and keep denying physics.
Only after physics has been denied is that blind tests come into play. Blind tests present another opportunity for those "Golden Ears" to prove that they can "hear" stuff that cannot be scientifically measured. Not surprisingly, those same "Golden Ears" will find any possible reason to avoid being "blind tested" and will do all that they can to question the validity of blind testing.
Any folk who claims to have a "Golden Ear" is entitled to believe that he can "hear" whatever he thinks he is hearing (even if that person is an old folk with demonstrable hearing issues). However, physics confirms that not all of those "believes" are true.
a.wayne
Well-known member
If music was only test tones and audiophiles robot Bots you would be correct , as everything would sound the same to everyone....
The work continues , Mars is an easier proposition ...!
Regards
The work continues , Mars is an easier proposition ...!
Regards
[emoji115] there!! As stated by a full-fledged Golden Ear”audiophile. I rest my case.
a.wayne
Well-known member
My Tesla made Ears are up to the task ...
kzhtoo
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How do you know the science as we know today is all there is about science and nothing more? How do you know a method to measure or a scientific understanding of what you term as “golden ears” hear won’t be developed in the future?
And I have yet to see any of you, if everything sounds the same, taking on $169.99 Best Buy cheap amp, $49.99 DAC and using all the free stock cables, while giving up all your gear currently in your system and still claim “I still enjoy my music”.
mep
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My question was vey sincere and I think you answered it quite succulently when you said the answer is simple...to merely troll.
BlueFox
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Personally, I have never blind tested anything. However, I have blindly bought all my gear and cables, and I love the resulting system. However, it did take a while to get to my current system since I kept upgrading everything until I got here. Now if Magico would introduce a S7 Mk II speaker I will be done for life.
Bud, a truer definition of 'blind faith' if there ever was one !
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