Blind comparisons of speakers, amps, and DACs...

[a.wayne]

After all the years of borrowing cables and gear for home auditions/comparisons and listening deep, most often coming to the conclusions that if I do hear a change, it is just a small difference rather than a definitive better/worse with most components and cables (not so with speakers!), I was always curious how the audiophile expects to do a comparison based on memory. This is akin to comparing the Mona Lisa to a another version and pointing out differences. Would not be possible unless both are in front of you at the same time. Can't do that with music. A few seconds of music is already in the past, not the present...

Still hearing i can’t so you can’t too ...!





Regards

 

[TheOctopus]

Wasn’t this your system? Gorgeous room!


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Yes that’s my room. Thanks. I’ve built many different systems over the years and spent a ton of money on cables too.

Different rooms and different speakers will be an obvious change and of course they have their unique sound signature.

It was also fun to try to figure which of the few dozen more popular cables made what difference over the years but in reality, even if they did, it was difficult to pinpoint for all the reasons we already discussed here.

Also not having a gauge or a frame of reference, it is up to our ears to interpret results of accuracy. I’m not tone deaf and I have good hearing that is in range for my age bracket of mid 50’s. Tweeters are starting to become less important over 15,000Hz which is normal but I’m not musically trained although I can appreciate a Stradivarius violin played well but only if I am told that’s a Stradivarius

Macro changes are one thing because there will be an obvious improvement that will persist over a variety of recordings, better bass response, better imaging, etc that we can latch on to and appreciate.

Micro changes where the differences are small or non-existent in reality are up to our imagination based on everything I have learned about how memory works and it’s fallibility.

 

[bluegrassphile]

You mean they don't like to talk about the 'chocolatey mids and the euphoric highs' !

Like any forum, one learns to separate those with an ounce of knowledge and those that don't really know the forest for the trees. Audiophiles are no exception !

I'm shattered. :bonkers: :snicker:

 

[Gary O]

Blind comparisons of speakers, amps, and DACs... this is the title; I did not do blind tests; but over the last 5-7 years I've changed all of these components in my system and without fail each has made a clear impression on my idea of what I enjoy. Speakers I think we all can agree make a huge difference. Amps; I find I constantly come back to tubes. Dac's, I've only tried a few and the one I'm using now made all the other components in my system as good as systems I've heard costing 10 times as much. So for a guy on the low end of hifi (I buy everything used) total cost of my system used is about 12K used maybe 20K if new all are current models. Also I only stream, no analog. I also did treatments in the room. Cables - One cable that did show an improvement was from my computer to my Dac. (not very expensive) but there was a clear improvement in sound definition, separation, clarity whatever you call it. So after writing this maybe I'm posting on the wrong thread. Not blind; but I was comparing components to see if I could hear (enjoy) something better.

 

[Mr Peabody]

I can tell you had fun and burning up the internet browsers. I'm surprised that some here agree with you. Many of your analogies don't apply. Most of the time when I see rants like yours by those on forums it shows a lack of experience and/or understanding. Or, just being a troll. Anyone who wanted to take the time can go on YouTube and find just as many counterpoints to your posts.

I will never believe that audio memory crap. Save some time, I don't care how many internet articles you produce. It's like you telling me it's midnight while I'm standing with the sun on my face. Same with all audio components sound the same.

I've heard some brands enough I know what they sound like. I may not even remember every song I heard on the gear but I know MBL vs McIntosh vs ARC VS Levinson, etc.. Anyone should be able to hear differences in any component category including cables. You have to be able to hear if something is more or less appealing, whether you detect more detail, differences in sound stage, etc. To me if you can't there's something wrong with YOU. Granted someone just startng out my need some time to learn what to listen for but those of you who have supposedly had higher end gear and still siding with Serge's opinion, what's wrong with you? It's those who have the issue, how can you pick out expensive gear without a defense of why you bought it, what did you hear that made you spend that much money? You are stupid to do that and not hear any difference.

One thing you, and those like you, fail to understand, it's not the song note for note I remember so much, it's the sonic character of how it's presented. I can try to explain that but I'm sure you won't get it.

And, as Wayne pointed out, we are not all the same. Ever stop to think YOU may be the one defective and everyone else hears what they hear?

You waste your time trying to convince how poor our auditory system is but I would suggest science has barely scratched the surface on any understanding.

Auditioning takes more than a few seconds. DBT is a joke, the reason they don't work is they are afraid someone might be able to hear a difference, you usually get about one second, not enough to even recognize the song let alone any character.

There is so much more going on in the sound of music we hear, not just notes. If it was just notes we wouldn't care how they sounded.

Personally if you aren't able to hear the differences in audio gear I don't understand why you are here at all.

Yes that’s my room. Thanks. I’ve built many different systems over the years and spent a ton of money on cables too.

Different rooms and different speakers will be an obvious change and of course they have their unique sound signature.

It was also fun to try to figure which of the few dozen more popular cables made what difference over the years but in reality, even if they did, it was difficult to pinpoint for all the reasons we already discussed here.

Also not having a gauge or a frame of reference, it is up to our ears to interpret results of accuracy. I’m not tone deaf and I have good hearing that is in range for my age bracket of mid 50’s. Tweeters are starting to become less important over 15,000Hz which is normal but I’m not musically trained although I can appreciate a Stradivarius violin played well but only if I am told that’s a Stradivarius

Macro changes are one thing because there will be an obvious improvement that will persist over a variety of recordings, better bass response, better imaging, etc that we can latch on to and appreciate.

Micro changes where the differences are small or non-existent in reality are up to our imagination based on everything I have learned about how memory works and it’s fallibility.

 

[TheOctopus]

I can tell you had fun and burning up the internet browsers. I'm surprised that some here agree with you. Many of your analogies don't apply. Most of the time when I see rants like yours by those on forums it shows a lack of experience and/or understanding. Or, just being a troll. Anyone who wanted to take the time can go on YouTube and find just as many counterpoints to your posts.

I will never believe that audio memory crap. Save some time, I don't care how many internet articles you produce. It's like you telling me it's midnight while I'm standing with the sun on my face. Same with all audio components sound the same.

l.

You can take your attempt at trying to insult me and science and stick THAT where the sun don’t shine.

When and if you decide to have a rational conversation, feel free to provide science backed counter arguments not your cheesy attempts at shaming me for expressing my own opinion and findings which were many years later explained by science.

Your echoic memory last a few seconds and people fail miserable at accurately recalling auditory information. That’s what many studies have revealed and they were administer by intelligent people. Science has nothing to do with silliness of hearing a difference between cables but real world applications and understanding that our echoic/auditory memory is poor to begin with but when it is even worse it leads to speech impairments and poor language development in kids.

You must be special because you are a self proclaimed “audiophile’ and that Cracker Jack box derived certificate gives you the right to ignore science. That’s your choice.

James Randi of the James Randi Educational Foundation, for years offered a million dollars to anyone with those golden audiophile ears who can pass a double blind test and prove expensive cables from manufacturer Pear that were highly praised in reviews sound better. No one stepped up. Michael Fremer thought he’d give it a shot. James passed away last year without ever having anyone challenge him and the cable manufacturer chickened out when they had the chance to prove their cables make a difference. No surprise.

 

[TheOctopus]

As to the question “why am I even here” which made me laugh... Because I still enjoy high end audio and craftsmanship that can reproduce music with a degree of fidelity that increases my enjoyment over a lesser, mid-Fi setup. At no point in the past 5 years am I still disillusioned that I need to be able to convince myself that playing the same track over and over while swapping cables needs to produce a result. I’ve had over 25 years of that practice and I’ve had enough.

Praying and kneeling at the altar of the high end audio manufacturers making bold and completely unscientific claims is not mandatory to enjoy the hobby as I have found out much to my surprise…

But to each their own. If you hear it, believe in it and so it shall be.

 

[Shadowfax]

I dont have Audiophile ears , who sell those ..!!!

I think they come with speakers made by GoldenEar

 

[TheOctopus]

I for one was completely satisfied with the insight gained and how it applies to the hobby after looking into the subject. In no way did it diminish my enjoyment of music itself. The gear swapping merry go round did stop but I put together an enjoyable system and stopped there for once. I’m ok with that balance and satisfaction level.



“Researchers at the University of Iowa have found that when it comes to memory, we don't remember things we hear nearly as well as things we see or touch.

"As it turns out, there is merit to the Chinese proverb 'I hear, and I forget; I see, and I remember," says lead author of the study and UI graduate student, James Bigelow.

"We tend to think that the parts of our brain wired for memory are integrated. But our findings indicate our brain may use separate pathways to process information. Even more, our study suggests the brain may process auditory information differently than visual and tactile information, and alternative strategies -- such as increased mental repetition -- may be needed when trying to improve memory," says Amy Poremba, associate professor in the UI Department of Psychology and corresponding author on the paper, published this week in the journal PLoS One.

Bigelow and Poremba discovered that when more than 100 UI undergraduate students were exposed to a variety of sounds, visuals and things that could be felt, the students were least apt to remember the sounds they had heard.

In an experiment testing short term-memory, participants were asked to listen to pure tones they heard through headphones, look at various shades of red squares, and feel low-intensity vibrations by gripping an aluminum bar. Each set of tones, squares and vibrations was separated by time delays ranging from one to 32 seconds.

Although students' memory declined across the board when time delays grew longer, the decline was much greater for sounds, and began as early as four to eight seconds after being exposed to them.


It gets worse with age…

 

[Mr Peabody]

"a degree of fidelity that increases your enjoyment", how do you know that? Did you DBT all your components against the "mid-fi" to be sure there was adifference?

As to the question “why am I even here” which made me laugh... Because I still enjoy high end audio and craftsmanship that can reproduce music with a degree of fidelity that increases my enjoyment over a lesser, mid-Fi setup. At no point in the past 5 years am I still disillusioned that I need to be able to convince myself that playing the same track over and over while swapping cables needs to produce a result. I’ve had over 25 years of that practice and I’ve had enough.

Praying and kneeling at the altar of the high end audio manufacturers making bold and completely unscientific claims is not mandatory to enjoy the hobby as I have found out much to my surprise…

But to each their own. If you hear it, believe in it and so it shall be.

 

[TheOctopus]

"a degree of fidelity that increases your enjoyment", how do you know that? Did you DBT all your components against the "mid-fi" to be sure there was adifference?

You are convoluting the subject.

The professional violin players failed at recognizing the multimillion dollar Stradivarius to a cheap modern mass produced violin. I’m pretty sure there was much more “difference” in sound than two audiophile cables that measure absolutely the same but described as sounding different by audiophiles, much like the violin player’s claims before being blind folded and failing….

Mid Fi speakers most often cannot reproduce the qualities of bass, typically will not poses a smooth high frequency response and usually have less accurate midrange where the human voice is concerned. These stimuli are easy to remember for anyone who is paying attention and has experienced better/worse performance. No one is debating that. It is easy to recall most of that information of “macro” changes.

Try to recreate a song in your head though, so it can be compared note for note, otherwise where is the proof that next cable is actually sounding different/better/worse since we don’t accept science and measurements in this hobby when it does not serve the agenda? Try that with two high quality amps in fact.

No wonder McIntosh engineers used to say there should be no perceivable difference between tubes and solid state if both are designed properly

 

[TheOctopus]

Another total blind-folded fail. A musician tries to tell solid state from valve amps…

I rest my case. We really do listen “with our eyes” and hear “what we want to hear” based on the preconceived notions.

Skip to 13 min mark for the reveal of “level of accuracy” at guessing solid state vs valve. Class D amp was a shocker

 

[a.wayne]

Hahaha

Anyone has James Randi contact number Handy , i could use a Million right about now before the empire collapses on itself ...!



Regards

 

[a.wayne]

Another total blind-folded fail. A musician tries to tell solid state from valve amps…

I rest my case. We really do listen “with our eyes” and hear “what we want to hear” based on the preconceived notions.

Skip to 13 min mark for the reveal of “level of accuracy” at guessing solid state vs valve

Means Squat ..!

You can game any experiment to poll up as many clowns do and being a musician actually means what ..?



Regards

 

[TheOctopus]

Means Squat ..!

You can game any experiment to poll up as many clowns do and being a musician actually means what ..?


Regards

Let me ask you then, what does being an audiophile actually mean? Considering your own ears and non musically trained listening experience better than musicians? Not being able to play/produce any music but being self assured that you hear and can tell more about the quality of music than the musicians themselves?

Let’s not mention clowns, ok?

 

[a.wayne]

Its apple and oranges ,

A musician comparing audio systems would be akin to an Audiophile comparing musical instruments and not being able to tell the difference. Obviously there is some over lapping, in both categories , A Musician who is an audiophile ( rare ) or an Audiophile who is a musician
( less rare ) ..

Im ex industry so my past experiences in this exposed me to both sides and its very rare with musicians being as discerning as most audiophiles when it comes to equipment ..

I have met many “Philes” who were very good at it , most are not, in that it takes them a longer time to reach the same conclusions or not , everyone processes what they hear differently , for many its taking steps to decide if they like A over B , especially if it goes against popular opinions ..!



Regards

 

[AJ Soundfield]

DBT is a joke

Not to the scientifically literate. Since late 1700s.
They are the defacto standard in science, including for the meds you take, the phone you use, the orchestras you may/may not listen to, etc, etc..
Heck, even the military uses them now.

the reason they don't work is they are afraid someone might be able to hear a difference, you usually get about one second, not enough to even recognize the song let alone any character.

IOW you have never done a valid blind listening test and are completely ignorant of how they are performed. The "second" is the minimized switching time, not the listening time, which has no limit. It could be for days.
Fact of the matter is, blind listening tests are great for determining sound>"trust" ears. They are terrible for the reality of fully sighted, tactile, biased, "experience"...which is exactly what everyone here does with their equipment, etc.
Two entirely separate things. Nothing wrong with the latter at all, whatever makes one most happy.

 

[Mr Peabody]

You are convoluting the subject.

The professional violin players failed at recognizing the multimillion dollar Stradivarius to a cheap modern mass produced violin. I’m pretty sure there was much more “difference” in sound than two audiophile cables that measure absolutely the same but described as sounding different by audiophiles, much like the violin player’s claims before being blind folded and failing….

** First of all you are wrong about the musicians so go back and read again. Anyone can tell the difference between a good and entry level violin. I could when I bought my daughter's. The thing you r talking about the musicians couldn't tell the difference between a Strat original and a Japanese replicated one. I'm sure any of them could tell a Strat from a entry level. Big difference from what you are stretching the truth about.

Mid Fi speakers most often cannot reproduce the qualities of bass, typically will not poses a smooth high frequency response and usually have less accurate midrange where the human voice is concerned. These stimuli are easy to remember for anyone who is paying attention and has experienced better/worse performance. No one is debating that. It is easy to recall most of that information of “macro” changes.

** Can't have it both ways, either we can or we cannot hear differences.

Try to recreate a song in your head though, so it can be compared note for note, otherwise where is the proof that next cable is actually sounding different/better/worse since we don’t accept science and measurements in this hobby when it does not serve the agenda? Try that with two high quality amps in fact.

Recreating a song in your hed has nothing to do with differences in sound characteristics. You continue to contradict yourself.

No wonder McIntosh engineers used to say there should be no perceivable difference between tubes and solid state if both are designed properly

Again, spouting off random misinformation without context to anything.

 

[TheOctopus]

Again, spouting off random misinformation without context to anything.

I could care less what it is you think you can or cannot hear and your keyboard warrior rudeness.

I stand by everything I said. It gets old proving over and over the certain illusions audiophiles are not ready to let go of.

The study with violins clearly stated that while players preferred the sound of the Stradivarius, yet in a double blind test, they preferred the new instruments. Which goes to prove that we hear with our eyes and preconceived notions as I already stated in another post.

some scientists and violinmakers question whether Strads and other "Old Italians" really have superior acoustic qualities. For decades, blind comparisons have shown that listeners cannot tell them from other violins, and acoustic analyses have revealed no distinct sonic characteristics. In 2014, Claudia Fritz, a musical acoustician at Pierre and Marie Curie University in Paris, and Joseph Curtin, a leading violinmaker in Ann Arbor, Michigan, reported that in a double-blind test with 13 modern instruments and nine Old Italians, 10 elite violinists generally preferred the new violins to the old.

Now, the team has shown that listeners also prefer new instruments—at least when considering a specific small set of fine violins. The researchers started by looking at a quality considered unique to Strads: They are supposed to sound quieter “under the ear" of the violinist, but project better into the concert hall “as if somehow the inverse-square law were reversed," Curtin says, referring to how the loudness of a sound decreases as the distance from the source increases.

Million-dollar Strads fall to modern violins in blind ‘sound check’ | Science | AAAS




One can go on entertaining illusions, or one can participle in blind, double blind, ABX or whatever comparisons they want to reach their own conclusions. I strongly believe even then, some audiophiles will go on believing they hear differences when analysis and measurements show nothing. Echoic memory is flawed. Period. Illusions will persist.

 

[Mike]

Many modern instruments do sound better to some, but to play them, is totally different. My modern horns have great action, a biting sound and to many initially, sound better, because, IMO, they sound brighter. Manufacturers know that when someone is trying new horns for only a short period in the store, the brighter ones sell.’ I would argue, over a long duration, myself and others prefer my vintage horns. My 1936 original lacquer Selmer Balanced Action has a glorious sound with classic action. Anything pre-WW2 has that airy, big fat open sound. Ben Webster plays this horn if anyone is interested in what I mean. Oh, and ditto for mouth pieces. My 1920’s mouthpieces are wonderful. Modern ones are more closed with more bite.


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