Blind comparisons of speakers, amps, and DACs...

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TheOctopus said:
Dave, that would be the logical way to take my post. Those are the facts. Our memories are far from perfect and sound memory is the worst of all...
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If you think about it, this pretty much disqualifies blind testing as well, unless you think you can analyze everything about sound quality in 2 seconds or less...
 
rbbert said:
If you think about it, this pretty much disqualifies blind testing as well, unless you think you can analyze everything about sound quality in 2 seconds or less...
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It does. But blind testing was always a good hint that we struggle to pick up on differences. We know why. Our ears have never been an accurate scientific instrument for comparing and contrasting minute differences in sound. Not to mention that it is nothing more than electrical impulses that are sent from the ear mechanism to the brain and depending on physiological and ethnic differences, we even hear differently enough to have a strong preference or dislikes for certain styles/genres of music depending on "how" we differ in our hearing. Hence the cultural preferences and the difference in musical expression and styles of musical instruments.
 
bluegrassphile said:
Tried to delete this thread. Guess I don't know how to. What the hey, learned some things anyway.
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Is there anything wrong with having an intelligent conversation? Or do we only discuss things that do not break the traditional beliefs and so long as they do not shatter illusions built up over decades? Again, why should any of this prevent anyone from enjoying music? Or buying your favorite pair of speakers, amps, preamps, etc... Unless of course your goal is to compare/contrast high end audio all day long? In that case we are not really prepared without scientific instruments but we don't like those in our hobby.... Those instruments often tell us there is no difference where we hear a difference. I wonder why that is LOL
 
Auditory Illusions are a whole other topic but fascinating how the ear/brain connection works. Here is an interesting bit. Just one of many from the auditory illusions collection... Hearing vocals where there are none. It only works if you know the song and the brain goes to work filling in the lyrics.


 
The other interesting phenomena is that our senses are strongly connected together. It is amazing that many more senses come into play to arrange for a complex reality we experience with our conscious mind. In this video the information processed by the visual cortex helps the auditory complex create spoken words in our brain.

 
Next time something you hear goes in one ear and out the other, you have a built-in excuse. Just blame it on your Achilles' ear—a weakness that lies not in a mythical hero's heel, but in the real-life way the brain processes sound and memory.

That's the suggestion of a University of Iowa study comparing how well we recall something, depending on whether we see it, hear it, or touch it.
Associate professor of psychology and neuroscience Amy Poremba and graduate student James Bigelow asked a hundred undergraduates to participate in two related experiments. In the first, students listened to sounds, looked at images, and held objects. Then, after an interval ranging from one to 32 seconds, they were asked whether various stimuli were the same or different from the originals.

In a second experiment, the students were asked to recall sounds, images, and objects after an hour, a day, and then a week. In both instances, the students' auditory recall came in last, lagging far behind the tactile and visual memories, which the students recalled at about the same level. The longer the time that elapsed, the greater the gap became, with auditory memory lagging farther and farther behind the other types of memory.


A Message From Your Brain: I'''m Not Good At Remembering What I Hear
 
TheOctopus said:
Echoic memory has nothing to do with "events" but sound. If one makes an argument that they would recognize "the voice" of a loved one, sure, you can, there are many cues in a spoken word and the human voice. Of course everyone would recognize popular songs by Diana Krall instantly but I seriously doubt any audiophile would recognize Diana Krall if she called on the phone... A percentage of the population, nearly 4% in fact, cannot recognize voices of even loved ones. The memory fails them and the condition is called "phonagnosia".

But even our "event" memory is fallible. That is simply because the memory is not a bit for bit perfect information stored on a hard drive... Our memories are an "overlay", an abstract picture that gets created by the brain when the memory is pulled from storage. Many of the details can easily change within the construct of that abstract memory recreation.

Why any audiophile would think they can precisely recall the details of a complex recording and compare/contrast based on a memory that does not even last more than a few seconds is beyond me. Then the audiophiles go on to proclaim something "better" or "worse" without having a frame of reference what the original recording sounded like in the studio or what the instrument or a bunch of instruments within a recording should sound like without musical training and pitch perfect hearing is also beyond me. But I've stopped pondering such things and simply enjoy music. If another shiny box interests me for whatever reason, so be it, it is part of enjoying the hobby.
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Hahaha , Good one .... :rolleyes:
 
TheOctopus said:
It does. But blind testing was always a good hint that we struggle to pick up on differences. We know why. Our ears have never been an accurate scientific instrument for comparing and contrasting minute differences in sound. Not to mention that it is nothing more than electrical impulses that are sent from the ear mechanism to the brain and depending on physiological and ethnic differences, we even hear differently enough to have a strong preference or dislikes for certain styles/genres of music depending on "how" we differ in our hearing. Hence the cultural preferences and the difference in musical expression and styles of musical instruments.
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Too many apples and oranges , Curious how many ABX listening tests have you been involved in ..?



Regards
 
a.wayne said:
Too many apples and oranges , Curious how many ABX listening tests have you been involved in ..?



Regards
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Plenty of blind listening tests over the decades of being involved in this hobby. None of the more involved ABX tests invented in the 1950's and long before neuroscience determined that our echoic memory is only good for a few seconds... :)

If you think about what neuroscience tells you, that our echoic memory is very short and unreliable as I have already posted numerous times, then one begins to understand that ABX tests would also be unreliable if they are longer than a few seconds as our brains are not able to retain such details.

Now of course that would depend on the actual complexity of sound, wouldn't it... If there are totally different sounds involved, I can see that experiment being valid and most of the population would pass with flying colors (sounds of a Lion, Alarm Clock and whatever X presents in ABX tests as an example) but splitting hairs trying to hear a difference between notes and all the information captured on a complex, multi-instrumental recording? That's a totally different task all together.

Like I said, think about pulling a memory of your favorite song and see if your brain can play it back for you note by note with fidelity, so then you can compare to what you are hearing with variables in your system. :)
 
I personally found the whole thing quite liberating after decades of being obsessed with the quest for perfect sound... There is no perfect sound, there is no perfect memory but being able to enjoy the hobby and countless hours of listening bliss to your favorite music, over your favorite playback gear, is priceless.
 
TheOctopus said:
Plenty of blind listening tests over the decades of being involved in this hobby. None of the more involved ABX tests invented in the 1950's and long before neuroscience determined that our echoic memory is only good for a few seconds... :)

If you think about what neuroscience tells you, that our echoic memory is very short and unreliable as I have already posted numerous times, then one begins to understand that ABX tests would also be unreliable if they are longer than a few seconds as our brains are not able to retain such details.

Now of course that would depend on the actual complexity of sound, wouldn't it... If there are totally different sounds involved, I can see that experiment being valid and most of the population would pass with flying colors (sounds of a Lion, Alarm Clock and whatever X presents in ABX tests as an example) but splitting hairs trying to hear a difference between notes and all the information captured on a complex, multi-instrumental recording? That's a totally different task all together.

Like I said, think about pulling a memory of your favorite song and see if your brain can play it back for you note by note with fidelity, so then you can compare to what you are hearing with variables in your system. :)
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You still haven't said much while saying much , how many compares and scenarios , as an hobbyist or professionally , large or small selection of audiophiles or just regulars. Your comments are all hip shooting IMO , its like hearing someone describe how a car or bike handles from reading magazines ..!

Its all i cant so you cant too ...!


:)
 
TheOctopus said:
I personally found the whole thing quite liberating after decades of being obsessed with the quest for perfect sound... There is no perfect sound, there is no perfect memory but being able to enjoy the hobby and countless hours of listening bliss to your favorite music, over your favorite playback gear, is priceless.
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Yes, agree ,

a bad hifi system from poor choices have many feeling this way , its not unusual, plenty bad hifi out there , i would quit too ..!



:)


Regards
 
a.wayne said:
Yes, agree ,

a bad hifi system from poor choices have many feeling this way , its not unusual, plenty bad hifi out there , i would quit too ..!



:)


Regards
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Wayne I’m presenting you with scientific facts. You are free to keep using the old audiophile excuses, “ your ears are not good enough, your system is not good enough, you can’t hear difference with cables so you are not an audiophile, etc.” I have no problem with whatever illusions folks want to keep entertaining if it makes them happy. I personally do not derive any joy or have to live with the same illusions.

There have been plenty of examples where the best ears in the industry could not reliably tell between various resolution files, no one stepped up for the million dollar challenge to reliably identify difference in cables in a blind test, etc… ad nauseam

Have fun comparing whatever it is you want to compare. The music will still be there in all its imperfect glory.
 
I dont recall saying any such as i also don't recall getting an answer :)



ABX compares or compares in general is whats necessary from a design development point of view and not necessary for an audiophile buying and choosing their hifi system, from an end user point of view the system is to make them happy , so of course with their value system in place , the decision to purchase any particular item has nothing to do with mainly compares, or even sonics alone , cost, looks , finish , pride of ownership , WAF , et al will come into play ....



But feel free to obscure the obvious again, after all who can hear the difference ...! :)


Regards

PS: Two Brothers exhaust , did your hearing in :roflmao:
 
After all the years of borrowing cables and gear for home auditions/comparisons and listening deep, most often coming to the conclusions that if I do hear a change, it is just a small difference rather than a definitive better/worse with most components and cables (not so with speakers!), I was always curious how the audiophile expects to do a comparison based on memory. This is akin to comparing the Mona Lisa to a another version and pointing out differences. Would not be possible unless both are in front of you at the same time. Can't do that with music. A few seconds of music is already in the past, not the present... :D
 
TheOctopus said:
After all the years of borrowing cables and gear for home auditions/comparisons and listening deep, most often coming to the conclusions that if I do hear a change, it is just a small difference rather than a definitive better/worse with most components and cables (not so with speakers!), I was always curious how the audiophile expects to do a comparison based on memory. This is akin to comparing the Mona Lisa to a another version and pointing out differences. Would not be possible unless both are in front of you at the same time. Can't do that with music. A few seconds of music is already in the past, not the present... :D
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8eed82c6dec7c37b387002f4ef7c18be.jpg


Wasn’t this your system? Gorgeous room!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
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