Balanced phono stages: input to output

I run a fully balanced analogue front end - Kuzma reference 2, Triplanar VII U2, Lyra Kleos, BMC MCCI. My Triplanar is terminated with xlrs and feeds my BMC MCCI. Very low noise floor, super resolution and dynamics. BMC MCCI is a remarkably capable phono stage for very little money.
 
The excellent Audia Flight Phono (which I happen to own) is also configured in a similar fashion, taking the fully balanced output of a moving coil cartridge through RCA tonearm cables to its inputs. The internal circuitry is fully balanced and handles the signal accordingly, which is then output either fully balanced through XLR connectors or via RCA connectors if the linestage is not a balanced design. It also provides up to 74dB of gain through its MC section without the use of any step up transformers. :D
 
I too have balanced phone (VPI 3D arm/ Ayre electronics). I have NO hum, even when I move the volume control to max and with my ear at the speaker.
 
Stringreen said:
I too have balanced phone (VPI 3D arm/ Ayre electronics). I have NO hum, even when I move the volume control to max and with my ear at the speaker.
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No hum or no noise? You shouldn't have any hum.
 
puroagave said:
this is true except the majority of RCA plugs are still designed with co-ax in mind (neg phase is grounded to a massive barrel (and inferior metallurgy to boot). just about all interconnect cable we would consider hi-end is and has been twin-axial (equal twisted pair of conductors for +/- legs) and a shield of some sort (usually braid and/or foil). AFAIK, the only RCA plug on the market today that treats the +/- phase of the signal *equally* are the Eichmann bulletplugs. WBT nextgen jack works well with this plug, and embraces similar design principles.
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Oh crud, I am getting confused again. So you are saying that all RCA phono connectors are are inferior unless they have Eichmann Bulletplugs????


Why do you suppose some higher-end balanced Phono Pre's use rca balanced inputs rather than xlr if this problem exists? It doesn't make any sense to me.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Oh crud, I am getting confused again. So you are saying that all RCA phono connectors are are inferior unless they have Eichmann Bulletplugs????


Why do you suppose some higher-end balanced Phono Pre's use rca balanced inputs rather than xlr if this problem exists? It doesn't make any sense to me.
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your question should be turned around: why do some mfrs use XLRs instead of RCAs on their balanced inputs? to avoid the RCA connector! XLRs also eliminates or greatly reduces the chance that your interconnect of choice is terminated incorrectly (neg leg and the ground/shield are tied together). the mfrs that use RCA inputs probably do so as a matter of convenience and no other reason.

to illustrate the difference in RCA plug designs will require pics. It looks like you're leaning towards a kuzma arm, not to worry his looms are terminated with Eichmann plugs. Bob graham uses the same.
 
puroagave said:
your question should be turned around: why do some mfrs use XLRs instead of RCAs on their balanced inputs? to avoid the RCA connector! XLRs also eliminates or greatly reduces the chance that your interconnect of choice is terminated correctly (neg leg and the ground/shield are not tied together). the mfrs that use RCA inputs probably do so as a matter of convenience and no other reason.

to illustrate the difference in RCA plug designs will require pics. It looks like you're leaning towards a kuzma arm, not to worry his looms are terminated with Eichmann plugs. Bob graham uses the same.
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Except there is no standard - and IIRC Rowland is different - for XLR wiring. But the bottom line is if Nick can drop noise to near theoretically low levels, how bad can RCAs be? Or does balanced make up for RCAs issues? Bottom line is, however, is how does it sound?

Personally can't tell you because the differences I hear are in large part due to the new Transparent cable rather than differences between cables. But the analog front end is more dynamic, less colored and quieter eg. More transparent.
 
From a well known manufacturer friend of mine regarding this discussion:

"Every output of a cartridge is balanced...whether the termination is XLR or rca....you have positive, negative and then a separate ground...so there is no such thing as an unbalanced turntable...this is an audiophile discussion...if you know what I mean.
Many people prefer the sound of an rca connector to an XLR (less mass...better conductivity ) ....so there is actually an argument to favor rca.

Yes...the input signal (coming from the turntable) is always balanced...but the output of phono stage can be unbalanced or balanced...depending on the amplification design of the phono stage...
My system is balanced...but I've heard unbalanced systems sound as good or better...

So my point is that, unfortunately there is a lot of confusion amongst audiophiles...and then some religious fervor about stuff that doesn't really matter...posturing,etc... and this is encouraged by snake oil sellers..."
 
Mike said:
From a well known manufacturer friend of mine regarding this discussion:

"Every output of a cartridge is balanced...whether the termination is XLR or rca....you have positive, negative and then a separate ground...so there is no such thing as an unbalanced turntable...this is an audiophile discussion...if you know what I mean.
Many people prefer the sound of an rca connector to an XLR (less mass...better conductivity ) ....so there is actually an argument to favor rca.

Yes...the input signal (coming from the turntable) is always balanced...but the output of phono stage can be unbalanced or balanced...depending on the amplification design of the phono stage...
My system is balanced...but I've heard unbalanced systems sound as good or better...

So my point is that, unfortunately there is a lot of confusion amongst audiophiles...and then some religious fervor about stuff that doesn't really matter...posturing,etc... and this is encouraged by snake oil sellers..."
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As I said before, all that counts is does it sound better or worse.

That said, I also asked whether the sonic differences between cables (both electrical and design) outweigh the differences between SE and balanced configuration? Just because it is balanced doesn't make it golden. No different than just because a record is 200 g making it golden either! :)
 
puroagave said:
your question should be turned around: why do some mfrs use XLRs instead of RCAs on their balanced inputs? to avoid the RCA connector! XLRs also eliminates or greatly reduces the chance that your interconnect of choice is terminated incorrectly (neg leg and the ground/shield are tied together). the mfrs that use RCA inputs probably do so as a matter of convenience and no other reason.

to illustrate the difference in RCA plug designs will require pics. It looks like you're leaning towards a kuzma arm, not to worry his looms are terminated with Eichmann plugs. Bob graham uses the same.
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Rob I hear, but I still have my doubts. I believe I understand the design parameters used in different rca plugs including Eichmann bullet plugs and WBT nextgen jacks I just have trouble believing they make a sq difference. It just seams hard for me to believe that ARC who makes some pretty good phono pre's uses rca's due to convenience at the expense of sq. :doubtful:
 
So we have seven using balanced phono? Know there's more analog people out there? Everybody else SE?

What did anyone hear when they went SE to balanced in their setups?
 
I own the mighty Zesto Andros 1.2 phono stage which is SE. I will be putting up my Krell KPE Reference phono stage for sale soon.
 
mep said:
I own the mighty Zesto Andros 1.2 phono stage which is SE. I will be putting up my Krell KPE Reference phono stage for sale soon.
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congrats, I owned the MkI version for a while, its a nice piece. it does have xlr inputs and RCAs - ask George why he bothered putting XLRs on? btw, did you go through some sort of exorcism to overcome the fact it use SUTs:P
 
puroagave said:
congrats, I owned the MkI version for a while, its a nice piece. it does have xlr inputs and RCAs - ask George why he bothered putting XLRs on? btw, did you go through some sort of exorcism to overcome the fact it use SUTs:P
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I would assume the XLRs are there for those whose tonearm cables are terminated with XLR connectors. With regards to the SUTs, I fell in love with the sound of the Andros 1.2 The last SUTs I tried were the Sowter 8055s that Mike Elliott installed in my Counterpoint SA-5.1. I had to send it back and have Mike remove them as I couldn't stand them. The circuit used in the Andros 1.2 is in another league.
 
FlexibleAudio said:
Rob I hear, but I still have my doubts. I believe I understand the design parameters used in different rca plugs including Eichmann bullet plugs and WBT nextgen jacks I just have trouble believing they make a sq difference. It just seams hard for me to believe that ARC who makes some pretty good phono pre's uses rca's due to convenience at the expense of sq. :doubtful:
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this illustration will help get across what i'm saying. its a typical "pseudo-balanced" interconnect using twin-axial cable and RCA connectors. The left side marked "input end" is whats connected to your turntables junction box (like VPI's). The right side labeled "ground end" is inserted into the input of your phono stage. This cable is appropriate for single ended connections between regular components but not balanced phono. do you see where the shield is tied to the negative tab on the "ground end"? this needs to be severed and a separate drain wire should be soldered to the shield and routed outside the plug with a spade connector that attaches to the chassis grounding post.

how many dealers or set-up techs even think of this? I've gotten the deer in the headlights many times. the cable conf shown above will actually work on a balanced input, its just that its not optimized and will probably induce hum.

Why does ARC use an RCA instead of an XLR on their phono preamps? because RCAs are way more common and it makes the dealers life easier - who knows. I'm using an ARC Ref 110 amp now and it only uses XLRs - why is that?
 
puroagave said:

this illustration will help get across what i'm saying. its a typical "pseudo-balanced" interconnect using twin-axial cable and RCA connectors. The left side marked "input end" is whats connected to your turntables junction box (like VPI's). The right side labeled "ground end" is inserted into the input of your phono stage. This cable is appropriate for single ended connections between components but not balanced phono. do you see where the shield is tied to the negative tab on the "ground end"? this needs to be severed and a drain wire should be soldered to the shield and routed outside the plug with a spade connector that attaches to the chassis grounding post.

how many dealers or set-up techs do you think even think of this? the cable conf shown above will actually work on a balanced input, its just that its not optimized and will probably induce hum.

Why does ARC use an RCA instead of an XLR on their phono preamps? because RCAs are way more common and it makes the dealers life easier - who knows. I'm using an ARC Ref 110 amp now and it only uses XLRs - why is that?
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But Rob, that is not what Nick and Josh did with the Transparent phono.

As Nick posted:

If the cable used is a co-ax, it is unwise to use it in balanced use since the path taken by the two conductors is not the same, if as with most tome arm cables , a twin conductor + shield, it can be used as a balanced connection even with a RCA connector. It is best to use a XLR since the shield can be extended over the mating surfaces providing a continuous shield which is an advantage in heavy RF environments. It is only single ended if the negative leg is tied to ground.

He also added:

If you have a balanced source and balanced input, you can achieve a balanced connection with a RCA connector. Not ideal but possible. The advantages of having a balanced input for a MC cart certainly outweigh any drawbacks of having to use an RCA for the connection. In Doshi audio gear, we can supply the units with RCA jacks or XLR connectors so as to accommodate the end user's cable.

Again the pertinent point is that Jim/Still One reported in the demo carried out at Paragon SnS that the differences between SE and balanced were very apparent. The take home message is that maybe more people running analog front-ends may want to give some thought to switching over to balanced configuration.

What differences did you hear Rob when you retired your front-end?
 
Myles B. Astor said:
But Rob, that is not what Nick and Josh did with the Transparent phono.
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Exactly Myles I agree and that's also the point I have been trying to talk to Rob about. We seem to be mixing the issue.

Of course putting an unbalanced RCA between two balanced components is senseless and would negatively impact sq. My concern is that it seems Rob is saying that a balanced RCA between two balanced components will negatively impact sq versus an xlr unless it uses Eichmann or WBT plugs. This is not my understanding but I am always willing to learn.
 
Myles, nothing I stated above conflicts with Nick, in fact we're both saying the exact same thing. He's validating everything I said. The illustration above is indeed a twin-axial cable (balanced) not co-ax. I'm trying to convey the importance of the grounding scheme, again its exactly what Nick is saying.
 
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