Audio Show Rant

[Vapor1]

Something I just posted on AudioCircle ...

Let's turn the table a bit. As a manufacturer and exhibitor, how about some things attendees should consider.

Take the sweet spot if it's open. I can't tell you how many times there have been 5 people in the room, and none in the sweet spot.

If you don't like the music, make a request.
If it's too loud, ask us to turn it down.
If the room is hot or stuffy, let us know.
And definitely don't leave the room with unanswered questions about the products.

... we aren't mind readers.

In short, stop being so timid! Speaking for myself, all I ask is for the chance to give you the best experience possible

 

[rbbert]

The exhibitors let Michael Fremer use his USB files

 

[Vapor1]

The exhibitors let Michael Fremer use his USB files

I always accommodate ANY music requests, horrible recording or not. I listen to a lot of horrible recordings at home, sometimes they can tell you more than good recordings can about a speaker. But I figure if someone has thought about the show enough to bring their own music, and if they are interested in our speakers enough to want to hear it on them, they're likely a serious shopper. It's my obligation, the only reason we do shows, to give those people what they want.

I think most of the problems with setup is the people running the rooms are not technical people at all, they're sales guys. To be able to quickly size up a room and develop a plan, then implement that plan successfully given the inevitable hiccups along the way, takes a solid technical background and deep understanding of the product.

 

[MDP]

Thought I'd share my thoughts about audio shows while the RMAF is fresh in my mind.

1. I do not believe that you can tell much about a system when the exhibitor is playing his own carefully selected audiophile music. You have no frame of reference unless you just happen to be familiar with that exact track. And even if you are lucky enough to know the track intimately, it is likely to be a track so pristinely recorded and beautifully produced it would sound amazing on most systems. In fact, I would go so far as to say that any member of the audio press that attends a show like this without his own music to demo is unfit to comment on any of the systems.

2. I brought my own music on CD, FLAC, and ALAC. Many exhibitors happily played my music. However, quite a few refused to play my music. This is unacceptable and actually embarrassing for the exhibitor IMO. When I played my own real world mainstream music, the system usually took a major dive in wow factor confirming my point number one.

3. Exhibitors would be well advised to stop bringing enormous 400lb monster speakers to small hotel rooms. First of all, the consumers looking to spend north of $100k on speakers is minuscule, making the speakers less relevant to the typical show goer. But far more important is the fact that these enormous speakers frequently sound bad when confined to these smallish rooms. Bass bloat was a huge problem in many of the higher end rooms IMO.

4. Exhibitors would be well advised to stop playing the music at ear splitting levels. I have polled other audiophiles regarding typical listening levels and I am confident that very few audiophiles regularly listen at the loudness levels many exhibitors seem fond of. Additionally, often the system suffered from sound quality issues when pushed beyond comfortable listening levels. Bass boominess is exacerbated, and treble can become strident in some systems.

5. Manufactures should really hire audiophiles with good listening perception to setup and man these exhibit rooms because when the system had poor performance, it was not unusual for the exhibitor to seem unaware of this.

6. It would be cool if the organizers of the show grouped the rooms by system price. Maybe there was some logic to the layout at RMAF, but it seemed pretty random to me. Would be nice to have the under $10k floor, the under $25k floor, and so on.

Still, had a good time and enjoyed the show.

Great post Tom !!

 

[BruceLet]

It can't be easy trying to get your best sound, in a new room, after the gear has been shipped across the country. It must be frustrating to exhibitors when it comes together just as they are packing up.

 

[CPP]

Thought I'd share my thoughts about audio shows while the RMAF is fresh in my mind.

1. I do not believe that you can tell much about a system when the exhibitor is playing his own carefully selected audiophile music. You have no frame of reference unless you just happen to be familiar with that exact track. And even if you are lucky enough to know the track intimately, it is likely to be a track so pristinely recorded and beautifully produced it would sound amazing on most systems. In fact, I would go so far as to say that any member of the audio press that attends a show like this without his own music to demo is unfit to comment on any of the systems.

2. I brought my own music on CD, FLAC, and ALAC. Many exhibitors happily played my music. However, quite a few refused to play my music. This is unacceptable and actually embarrassing for the exhibitor IMO. When I played my own real world mainstream music, the system usually took a major dive in wow factor confirming my point number one.

3. Exhibitors would be well advised to stop bringing enormous 400lb monster speakers to small hotel rooms. First of all, the consumers looking to spend north of $100k on speakers is minuscule, making the speakers less relevant to the typical show goer. But far more important is the fact that these enormous speakers frequently sound bad when confined to these smallish rooms. Bass bloat was a huge problem in many of the higher end rooms IMO.

4. Exhibitors would be well advised to stop playing the music at ear splitting levels. I have polled other audiophiles regarding typical listening levels and I am confident that very few audiophiles regularly listen at the loudness levels many exhibitors seem fond of. Additionally, often the system suffered from sound quality issues when pushed beyond comfortable listening levels. Bass boominess is exacerbated, and treble can become strident in some systems.

5. Manufactures should really hire audiophiles with good listening perception to setup and man these exhibit rooms because when the system had poor performance, it was not unusual for the exhibitor to seem unaware of this.

6. It would be cool if the organizers of the show grouped the rooms by system price. Maybe there was some logic to the layout at RMAF, but it seemed pretty random to me. Would be nice to have the under $10k floor, the under $25k floor, and so on.

Still, had a good time and enjoyed the show.

Well said. This is the first year I have missed RMAF and what you noted in your comments is spot on.

Like you I never understood vendors playing "music" so loud or cramming big honking speakers into small rooms and expecting to achieve stellar results. And like a few have noted, there are some "rude" vendors, catering to the "mag reviewers or well known attendees" and bypassing the plain old BUYING consumer.

I will not make next years show due to a 20 year wedding anniversary. We had planed on April 2015 but the trip is now moved to October.

Anyway, and like Myles noted, turn the freaking air conditioning on. I find it hard to be impressed when you have sweat running in your eyes and as Myles noted in your ears.

 

[Steve]

It can't be easy trying to get your best sound, in a new room, after the gear has been shipped across the country. It must be frustrating to exhibitors when it comes together just as they are packing up.

Agree.... And across the world. Rooms are often not congenial with ceiling heights & dimensions incompatible to equipment placement. Notwithstanding, there are paying prospects to see the exhibits. Exhibitors should use best efforts to choose & ready their space properly like placing portable room treatments to equalise their solution & use cable burners to help settle their cables beforehand.


Thank goodness the venue for the Melbourne HiFi Shown is Rialto for the past 2 years, where ceiling heights are 3+ metres. I have a thing about low ceilings.

 

[MusicDirector]

Something I just posted on AudioCircle ...

Let's turn the table a bit. As a manufacturer and exhibitor, how about some things attendees should consider.

Take the sweet spot if it's open. I can't tell you how many times there have been 5 people in the room, and none in the sweet spot.

If you don't like the music, make a request.
If it's too loud, ask us to turn it down.
If the room is hot or stuffy, let us know.
And definitely don't leave the room with unanswered questions about the products.

... we aren't mind readers.

In short, stop being so timid! Speaking for myself, all I ask is for the chance to give you the best experience possible

Good points.

For me personally, I'm the guest and as such I don't have the right to blatantly make a request if I don't like the music selected unless it is welcomed. I would always ask nicely of course. Let's not forget about manners. I actually tried asking about requests a few times (not too much) and many times got the cold shoulder or even ridiculed for my request because it was not something the exhibitor liked. (I found it odd and intimidating because it was not like I was asking "Hey dude got any gangsta rap"? or anything else I don't like). I don't bring my own music if I'm not in market for anything. If the exhibitor doesn't have the piece of music one requests, then that's fine, they just don't have it, but don't get snooty about it.

"If it's too loud ask us to turn it down": You may be accommodating to that in which I would thank you all over the place, but good luck with that in many other cases otherwise. For one thing, one will not be heard due to the limitations of the human voice over the decibels of what is playing. Second, good luck even getting the attention of the exhibitor at that point. Third, if you do manage to get their attention say outside the door or what have you and ask them to turn it down, many will refuse with the excuse of something like "I need to play at reference levels to show the gear" or "well, most people like it loud". I ran into this more than once.

I recall only one room I walked into that was hot and stuffy and I heard the exhibitor telling someone else that he would not turn on the A/C unit because the compressor could be heard.

Sometimes leaving the room with unanswered questions is unavoidable, but that's what the internet and phones are for. Many manufactures or reps are happy to take a phone call or answer emails.

 

[MusicDirector]

I always accommodate ANY music requests, horrible recording or not. I listen to a lot of horrible recordings at home, sometimes they can tell you more than good recordings can about a speaker. But I figure if someone has thought about the show enough to bring their own music, and if they are interested in our speakers enough to want to hear it on them, they're likely a serious shopper. It's my obligation, the only reason we do shows, to give those people what they want.

I think most of the problems with setup is the people running the rooms are not technical people at all, they're sales guys. To be able to quickly size up a room and develop a plan, then implement that plan successfully given the inevitable hiccups along the way, takes a solid technical background and deep understanding of the product.

Your a good man.
One also take into consideration that these rooms are not real accommodating to the gear and/or optimized for a dialed in set up either, so it's a tough environment even for the tech minded, so to expect too much or a lot is kind of unfair to begin with.

 

[KeithR]

maybe I'm just lucky, but I've only had one negative music experience over the past few years- most exhibitors have loved the music i bring to play as its not audiophile bs. the one time, an exhibitor took off my Daft Punk album (that subsequently took the audiophile world by storm) since a track had a digital voice. LOL. i quickly left. the next time someone does that to me, I'm going to give them an earful.

 

[wisnon]

Those rooms can be intimidating, I agree, but I don't let that stop me. Most rooms I went to Id wait until it was my turn for attention and I'd ask them to play my music. Like I said, many of the exhibitors were accommodating. And it was indispensable in assessing the equipment. It allowed me to compare the equipment in many rooms with the exact same songs. From that I was able to determine that I had no interest in many of the offerings. But there were exceptions that I was impressed with.

hehehehehe

I recall 2 shows I have been to and both times it was dealer or outsourced marketing reps manning the room and the first for a quality Austrian speaker was very snooty, telling me I only had a limited slot with my songs. I had about 5 songs to test and did not want to hog the show, though the room was far from crowded. Thus I went about 1/3rd way each time and asked him to skip to the next. After about 3 songs when I called out "next" again, he said "WAIT! I like this one, we make it play out fully". LoL Snootyness overcome.

Then I was in a Swiss gear room at another show and wanted a brochure, but it may have been the last and the lady was vigilant and insisted I could not keep it. I told her I would just read it while there, as I listened to my SuperCD compilation disk. She never took her eye off me, as she felt like I was gonna bolt with the silly brochure. I got my revenge back though. When the SuperCD started to play, it attracted showgoers in like fly to honey and the SAME lady came over to me begging for a copy, offering money and saying I CANT LEAVE THE room with the CD as they absolutely needed it to make a success of the weekend! This was the Friday, so she had 2 days to go. Same lady who was miserly with the brochure...and me, cracking up inside and keeping a stiff upper lip on the outside. Hehehe.

Final show anecdote. I was in the room of a famous German speaker maker, very popular in Asia. Unbeknowst to me, this person was famous for giving showgoers no more than one song request, no exceptions!!!...until they heard the SuperCD and the UltraCD. I got the better part of 90 mins with a small interruption for a customer vinyl break and even then I got profuse apologies.Heheehe, compilations strike again.

Still, I got my German marching orders of : "make sure you send me copies of those".

Dont you just love it when a plan comes together?

 

[Shadowfax]

I have not had the pleasure of attending a show like this and would like to someday.

Going back to the first post point #1

This is not much different than the majority of equipment reviews where the most system taxing music used is Dianna Krall. Just how taxing can a single vocalist with a few piano notes be on ANY system?

These reviewers (and exhibitors) never seem to demo or review equipment using multi layered, multi instrument, electric music. It's usually some classical and the rest singer-songwriter music.

I want to see systems demo'd and exhibited with music like Zappa, Mahavishnu, Jeff Kollman, even the Rippingtons would be a better demo of a system than Dianna.

As far as big money gear sounding bad, I have experienced that years ago at Soundex. I was in room #1 by myself and cranked up Santana Supernatural disk via Levinson gear driving some Wilson Grand Slams. The louder you turned it up, the more you wanted it off. I know some of that has to do with how overly compressed that disk is, but hey, thats what people are forced to listen to from the industry these days unless purchasing overly expensive audiophile recordings.

I think both Reviewers as well as Exhibitors would be doing people a better service if they used a bit more complicated music at times.

 

[MusicDirector]

I have not had the pleasure of attending a show like this and would like to someday.

Going back to the first post point #1

This is not much different than the majority of equipment reviews where the most system taxing music used is Dianna Krall. Just how taxing can a single vocalist with a few piano notes be on ANY system?

These reviewers (and exhibitors) never seem to demo or review equipment using multi layered, multi instrument, electric music. It's usually some classical and the rest singer-songwriter music.

I want to see systems demo'd and exhibited with music like Zappa, Mahavishnu, Jeff Kollman, even the Rippingtons would be a better demo of a system than Dianna.

As far as big money gear sounding bad, I have experienced that years ago at Soundex. I was in room #1 by myself and cranked up Santana Supernatural disk via Levinson gear driving some Wilson Grand Slams. The louder you turned it up, the more you wanted it off. I know some of that has to do with how overly compressed that disk is, but hey, thats what people are forced to listen to from the industry these days unless purchasing overly expensive audiophile recordings.

I think both Reviewers as well as Exhibitors would be doing people a better service if they used a bit more complicated music at times.

Totally agree. A good system or what have you should be able to play any type of music and sound good. Of course, one doesn't expect any miracles with a poor recording, but the system should make multi-layer, complicated music sound just as nice as a singer with a few piano notes. The gear should be able to make everyday CDs, vinyl LPs and what have you, sound just as good as any audiophile stuff. I'd like to hear gear at these shows play some good complicated progressive rock sometime (maybe such as Rush or Yes or any of a number of groups) or at least some full orchestra Mozart or Beethoven or something and either played at nice tame listening level please. I mean come on, let's see what this baby can really do.

 

[BlueFox]

This is not much different than the majority of equipment reviews where the most system taxing music used is Dianna Krall. Just how taxing can a single vocalist with a few piano notes be on ANY system?

These reviewers (and exhibitors) never seem to demo or review equipment using multi layered, multi instrument, electric music. It's usually some classical and the rest singer-songwriter music.

I want to see systems demo'd and exhibited with music like Zappa, Mahavishnu, Jeff Kollman, even the Rippingtons would be a better demo of a system than Dianna

Not sure what reviews you read, but the ones I read in stereophile and the absolute sound use a variety of source music.

One problem I would expect from using electronic, Zappa, and other forms of music like that is, by definition, it is 'distorted'. There is no baseline to be able to say if any part is accurate or distorted. While a reviewer can say it sounds good or bad, one can't say if it is accurate.

 

[Shadowfax]

Not sure what reviews you read, but the ones I read in stereophile and the absolute sound use a variety of source music.

One problem I would expect from using electronic, Zappa, and other forms of music like that is, by definition, it is 'distorted'. There is no baseline to be able to say if any part is accurate or distorted. While a reviewer can say it sounds good or bad, one can't say if it is accurate.

I don't fully follow your thoughts.

Are you saying that one should only listen to "accurate" recordings if they want to spend $100K on speakers? They should make anything thrown at it sound good. It's supposed to be about listening to Music, not listening to Gear.

I have not read many reviews lately, and I know some use a variety of music, but I don't consider Niel Young's Harvest very taxing either.

 

[MusicDirector]

Not sure what reviews you read, but the ones I read in stereophile and the absolute sound use a variety of source music.

One problem I would expect from using electronic, Zappa, and other forms of music like that is, by definition, it is 'distorted'. There is no baseline to be able to say if any part is accurate or distorted. While a reviewer can say it sounds good or bad, one can't say if it is accurate.

Ok fine, what about full orchestra classical (no distortion there)? You don't hear about that being used much either. We are just talking about a bit of what could be considered taxing music.
We are talking about real world application. I mean, not everyone has a library of strictly audiophile media and one artist (certainly not me anyway). A six digit system should be able to separate all the layers yet still maintain the structural integrity of the music having each layer in unison at the spot it should be in and heard distinctly. In other words, it should render the listener god-smacked or at least speechless for a brief moment.
Just my view on it, but then again, I have bad vision.

 

[Shadowfax]

^^^ exactly, Eric. Real world is the key. I personally don't know anyone that only owns audiophile recordings to play on a mega buck setup. Most people listen to music and artists that they like, even if the recording is not stellar. If you have big money in any system, you should not be limited to only using audiophile recordings in order to get good sound.

If a system, no matter what the cost, does not make what "I" listen to sound good, then it is not doing it's job. If it does that first, then makes audiophile recordings sound even better, then that's a plus.

When I bought my Dynaudio speakers, the disk that helped me decide between Dyns and B&W was SRV - Couldn't Stand The Weather. Ever hear that at a show or in a demo room? It's only 3 instruments.

 

[rbbert]

...When I bought my Dynaudio speakers, the disk that helped me decide between Dyns and B&W was SRV - Couldn't Stand The Weather. Ever hear that at a show or in a demo room? It's only 3 instruments.

That's a joke, right? Not playing SRV is one of the top requests from showgoers posting on sites like Audioshark.

Even if it's not your favorite musical style, classical music, from full-scale orchestral works to choral works to opera to chamber music to solo recitals, remains the best way to truly test a system.

 

[MusicDirector]

^^^ exactly, Eric. Real world is the key. I personally don't know anyone that only owns audiophile recordings to play on a mega buck setup. Most people listen to music and artists that they like, even if the recording is not stellar. If you have big money in any system, you should not be limited to only using audiophile recordings in order to get good sound.

If a system, no matter what the cost, does not make what "I" listen to sound good, then it is not doing it's job. If it does that first, then makes audiophile recordings sound even better, then that's a plus.

When I bought my Dynaudio speakers, the disk that helped me decide between Dyns and B&W was SRV - Couldn't Stand The Weather. Ever hear that at a show or in a demo room? It's only 3 instruments.

Spot on Brian!

I brought along everything from acoustic guitar to solo piano to bebop jazz to electric blues to full orchestra classical to Pink Floyd to Rush to everything in between and just for giggles, even some Silversun Pickups which is messy with me when I was shopping for my mega-buck speakers. I always had the sales guy or whatever put on my music so that I was not to blame if something went wonkers (and it did a couple of times). I was looking for speakers that could handle anything I threw at them and make it sound good. I did find some mega-buck speakers that excelled in jazz and rock and fell apart on classical and some that excelled in classical and fell apart on rock and other such results. That said, there were also speakers I found that excelled at everything. Anyway, that's just a real world example of that one experience I had.

Hmm, I just thought of an interesting or flat out crazy idea. I don't know if I could pull it off for various reasons, but I was thinking....if someone else ends up going to the SHOW on the west coast next year or any show. Maybe they could hit a few rooms perhaps and ask the reps what they listen to themselves as far as music goes (compared to what they use for demo), kind of a survey type thing. It may be interesting.

 

[Shadowfax]

That's a joke, right? Not playing SRV is one of the top requests from showgoers posting on sites like Audioshark.

Even if it's not your favorite musical style, classical music, from full-scale orchestral works to choral works to opera to chamber music to solo recitals, remains the best way to truly test a system.

No joke at all, I demo gear to purchase with music I listen to, not what you listed above. If it only sounds good playing your playlist, and sounds crappy playing what I listen to, why would I buy it?

And yes, i know the majority of members here and lots of other HE sites mostly listen to non system taxing music. It does seam like, and I posed this question when the Shark started, the more high end gear one has, the less taxing music they listen to. I know there are plenty of exceptions and I am not painting with a wide brush stroke, but a $100k system better sound good with SRV as well at Bach or it ain't worth the money, in my opinion.

I have watched and listened to all the videos that Jax posts, which he classifies as great, and it really does nothing for me and again most is just simple singer-songwriter drivel that sounds good on a Wave.