Audio: Old-Fashioned Ethics, Still Around?

Golucid

Taking a break
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Jan 10, 2015
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I stumbled across this article roughly 2 years ago when I still had B&O equipment and needed to have it serviced. I contacted this fellow who resides in Israel. The guy is sharp and spot on. This is a healthy and invaluable read and will get your mind thinking...because, the fact of the matter. It's true.

1. A relatively new unit (less than about 10 years old).

Today’s manufacturers unfortunately have only one driving motive, to maximize profit. Quality and reliability are inferior considerations. Their slick marketing campaigns may give the impression that quality is important, however any technician worth his salt will discover immediately upon examining the interior, that this is stretching the imagination by a long shot.

So, even if the design of the appliance is exceptionally innovative, the designers’ motives will have been strangled by the accountants, resulting in many of the internal electronic components being sourced from second-rate manufacturers who happen to be in the Far East.

That’s a fact, and there’s nothing the average naïve consumer can do about that.

Correct, the manufacturer offers a 1 or 2 year warranty (built into the price is a mathematical formula that the manufacturer will lose money on n% of defective units), and after that the customer is on his own. The manufacturer hopes that the customer will come back and buy the current latest model from him again.

Fact – it is not profitable for today’s manufacturer to build long-lasting, reliable products. He needs many appliances sold, and often, to stay in business, in this cut-throat world of today, where ethics are frowned upon, as ancient relics of an extinct, honest world.

What I do – if this is a well-designed unit, from a reputable (and even that’s a dicey term to use today) manufacturer – I gut the entire unit, and rebuild it from scratch. Now, I don’t even consider who the original parts manufacturers were, because I know from experience that they were not selected because of their quality, but rather their low price.

There still are trustworthy reliable quality parts manufacturers today (although they are certainly in the minority), and it is from these companies whom I source the components to rebuild the unit.


2. A vintage unit (older than 15-20 years).

This age (1970’s to early 1990’s) was the golden age of real, highest of high-fidelity, when the manufacturers were falling over each other to build the most-powerful, most-reliable, best-sounding units, and damn the cost.

These were what I call “ethically-built” units. It is a concept no longer alive in the minds of modern audio manufacturers.

They all used the highest-quality components which were available at the time, and they lasted 30+ years, in working condition.

However, most of their life-limited components have long-since failed, rendering them non-operational, or if still “operational”, then barely sounding acceptable.

Here, I gut these completely, and once again, install the highest-quality components available, regardless of price, in these units. Meticulous and exact attention is paid to the choice of these components, as to whether they will be installed in the power, audio, or RF signal circuits. Each of these circuits has differing and special requirements, and one size DOES NOT fit all!

And it shows. Properly restored, the vintage units outclass, from every imaginable perspective, their modern equivalents which may cost 10 to 20 times the price of the restored vintage unit.

Example – a restored McIntosh receiver costing $5,000 will outclass its modern equivalent costing over $50,000. And it doesn’t matter whether it is Pioneer, Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, or B&O – the listener’s ears will tell him very quickly which is better.

Ethics Summary

In short, you are purchasing an “ethically-restored” unit, which I firmly believe will outclass, firstly, any other example of its type you may find anywhere in any condition (restored or otherwise), and secondly, far outclass any example of a new stereo unit (from any manufacturer whatsoever), of the same price today.

You can also expect trouble-free operation from the electronic circuits for at least 10-20 years, before minor adjustments should be made. Mechanical components such as rubber belts (if installed) should be replaced as required.

It goes without saying that the audio performance on each of these units is exceptional.

RECOMMENDED READING: SOURCE
 
This is an example of a state of the art CD player made by Sony. The Sony CDP-XA7ES circa 1998. NOTHING by McIntosh or whomever completes with the build quality. Watch this video. It will blow your mind. Not only is the unit built with rubber insulation to minimize vibration/noise but the CD transport tray is off-the-hook and the CD spindle area, similar to a turntable, incorporates weight that goes on top of the CD to also minimize vibration/noise. Oh, includes balanced outputs XLR, etc. No manufacture that I know of today does anything even close to this...oh, the player is all aluminum and weights in at 30 pounds.

SONY'S VERY TOP OF THE LINE FLAGSHIP BEST CD PLAYER



AND THIS IS SONY'S VERY LAST QUALITY CD PLAYER and you can see where quality started to slip.

 
AMR's been doing stuff like that for nearly a decade now. It's a shame that they never update a darned thing.

Sigh...

Meanwhile, Sony used to make and is still fully capable of making excellent products. To this day, I've yet to come across any other digital source that offers such fluid software, short of maybe Boulders latest DAC. You could fast forward or back-track all day long on some of their old CD-players, and they'd never even hesitate.
 
Also... Unless that guy is referring to disposable plastic receivers that you find on the shelves at big box retailers, his assessment of todays high-end gear is way, way off.
 
Also... Unless that guy is referring to disposable plastic receivers that you find on the shelves at big box retailers, his assessment of todays high-end gear is way, way off.

Hey Zero, the implication is not that ALL is doom, but it is worth noting that that quality is different with many products - AGAIN, NOT ALL OR EVEN LETS JUST SAY MOST. And to be clear, this is not a question about technology but build quality.

I am certainly not against greed and profit. We love money - gawd I sure do! Even so, the build quality is not nearly what it once was. Ok, so... how about those washers and dryers out there that have lasted 30-50 years. To continue that type of build quality today, is this good business? Would these companies that build that sort of quality be able to complete with LG and Samsung? Many of you I'm sure remember these old fashioned products that seem to never die: grandma's washer, dryer, fridge, etc that would just not die. I've come across them in antique stores and they still work!

Here's an example of great tech but predicted failure. I have a state of the art Samsung Washer that died just after the three year warranty ran out and thankfully I had paid for the extended warranty that gave me another 2 years. It died shortly there after the extended warranty and left me with a decision to pay nearly what I paid new to fix it or just replace it.

In the end I did precisely what big corporate wants, dispose of the old unit and buy another. It's brilliant business!

The argument isn't that the technology is not more advanced today - it most certainly is...and what is also advanced is building in predicted failure to further profit. It does not make sense for corporations that are profit motivated to built products that last decades as they once did. I certainly would foster this approach if I was Sony, Samsung, McIntosh, Aurender and so forth. It's about money and generating some level of predicted cash flow.


empirical |əmˈpirik(ə)l|
adjective
based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic: they provided considerable empirical evidence to support their argument.

My personal experience and I spend a lot of money on "high-end products". As an example: McIntosh. I can certainly tell you that the McIntosh I own such as the McIntosh MB100 I purchased is utter Junk - it's an embarrassment! The C2500 certainly has quality flaws and issues with USB. I expect that the MB50 I ordered will also be a lesser build quality but I can't help myself and buy another McIntosh product. Back to the MB100, I had to step in and revise much of junk quality that I could. The MB100 certainly will perish and is not intended to last. McIntosh is no Target, Sony or the like, but they certainly revised their quality. There is a reason I went out and purchased OLDER McIntosh such as the MDA1000, C1000. The build quality is outstanding!

Lets bring up cars...oh gosh. High end cars are maintenance nightmares. Faster and more tech...heck yes. I've owned many of these prestigious cars only to dump them and buy Mercedes. That is not to say that Mercedes doesn't have issues. But gasp, as an example, I had a Bentley and it spent more time on a flat bed on its way from Lake Tahoe to San Francisco for service - and seemed to live there, and the worst, a Maserati - gawwwwd. I couldn't wait to dump em. Sure, when the Maserati ran, it sounded great, looked good. Nice leather...utter junk. Neither got much time to drive because they were always in the shop draining my pocket book. As I said above, invested in Mercedes - less issues. Oh, and I admit it. I bought those cars purely out of Ego and insecurity. "oh look at me - crusing'. All the guys I met that owned or had owned these exotics urged me to not do it - they look good and feel good but are riddled with electrical and mechanical issues. In end, huge financial loss. My dad was correct...dumb move. Idiot LOL

Are there still products being manufactured with quality? Absolutely - but certainly not the majority.
 
Golucid,

I only have a few minutes to type this out so I apologize in advance if my response seems rushed or cold. So here's the thing..

If you want to take the "It ain't built like it once was" perspective and apply it to something like the major appliance sector, that's perfectly acceptable. There's a good reason why I still run 20+ year-old Maytag washers and dryers. That particular industry may be the most egregious when it comes to planned obsolescence

However, when we look at hi-fi, now the situation becomes far different. Outside of the mass-market grade products, the majority of the hi-fi gear that's available today is sublime. It's built incredibly well, uses far better parts, and can still be very economical to both use and own.

As for McIntosh.. They're a pre/amp and amp company. One could also argue that they're a speaker company. Digital stuff however? That's not their thing. Heck, modern features just isn't their thing. They only offer it because they have to in order to stay relevant. Besides, there have been a lot of changes going on over in McIntosh land. I'll just leave things at that.

Anyways, if I misread the above post then I apologize. I read it with the mindset of hi-fi being the forefront topic. If that wasn't the case, and if the authors exposition was more broad brush, then I'll happily rescind my original response. If not, then yeah... a 10 minute google search of different hi-fi brands is all that it will take to shut down that particular point-of-view.
 
Golucid,

I only have a few minutes to type this out so I apologize in advance if my response seems rushed or cold. So here's the thing..

If you want to take the "It ain't built like it once was" perspective and apply it to something like the major appliance sector, that's perfectly acceptable. There's a good reason why I still run 20+ year-old Maytag washers and dryers. That particular industry may be the most egregious when it comes to planned obsolescence

However, when we look at hi-fi, now the situation becomes far different. Outside of the mass-market grade products, the majority of the hi-fi gear that's available today is sublime. It's built incredibly well, uses far better parts, and can still be very economical to both use and own.

As for McIntosh.. They're a pre/amp and amp company. One could also argue that they're a speaker company. Digital stuff however? That's not their thing. Heck, modern features just isn't their thing. They only offer it because they have to in order to stay relevant. Besides, there have been a lot of changes going on over in McIntosh land. I'll just leave things at that.

Anyways, if I misread the above post then I apologize. I read it with the mindset of hi-fi being the forefront topic. If that wasn't the case, and if the authors exposition was more broad brush, then I'll happily rescind my original response. If not, then yeah... a 10 minute google search of different hi-fi brands is all that it will take to shut down that particular point-of-view.

Thanks for the post, you're definitely a cool dude.

Fir me, it's not about being right or wrong but being aware. I respect your viewpoints and I trust you respect mine - and we do not have to agree - and that's the beauty. We have many options and viewpoints and we get to make our own decisions based on the knowledge and experience that we individually have. An example would be the RCM debate. Or even digital versus vinyl - you can't win!

I brought up the topic intended as a healthy discussion and not to convince or sway one person or the other. I like a healthy respectful for discussion.

In the end we get to decide what we believe individually - usually with our wallet.

On point because I fear that this discussion will go sideways is that the key point is: “the fact is build quality has dropped regardless of capability.”
 
The importance of awareness is certainly a notion that I can get down with.

However, the notion that 'build quality has dropped regardless of capability' is one that I think is a touch more debatable. Whenever grande, sweeping statements like these are made, I think it's always important to ask the question: "Ok, but as compared to what?"

The appliance industry that you cited is a great example of a business that has become far more profit driven than quality driven. There are also many other examples that can be used to support the above argument.

That being said, I think it's only fair to balance out that perspective by showcasing industries that, by and large, are still driven by the idea of providing quality goods. The luxury high-end stereo market is a good example of this. While there are no doubt companies that take shortcuts and focus more on the bottom-line than they do the product itself - most of the companies that I know design and build stuff that's meant to last a very, very long time.

Anyway, that's just my haphazard thought on the subject.
 
While there are no doubt companies that take shortcuts and focus more on the bottom-line than they do the product itself - most of the companies that I know design and build stuff that's meant to last a very, very long time.


Check out the McIntosh MB100 product. In fact, on this forum, I do into much detail about the process of replacing their junk parts within the chassis. Oh, this product is from a high-end company and they seriously skimped. Their price for the product what right up there with the best of em, expensive. The build, an abomination. But never doubted that there are companies that do build great stuff and it would be good to see a list of those companies that still have a product line with integrity.

The fact remains, “build quality has dropped regardless of capability.” Not for all, but note worthy a trend here to stay.
 
Bro.. McIntosh is just one brand.

How about: Nagra, Bryston, Tidal, Rockport, Wilson Audio, Luxman, Conrad Johnson, Karan Acoustics, Vitus Audio, MBL, Harbeth, Dynaudio, Avantgarde, Rosso Fiorentino, Focal, Revel, Living Voice, Trenner and Friedl, Totem Acoustic, Odyssey Audio, Grado, Rogue Audio, Blue Circle Audio, Spendor, Klipsch Heritage line, D'Agostino, Accuphase, Audio Research, Ayre, Graff, Gryphon Audio, Magico, MIT Cables , Skogrand cables, Pass Labs, Stax, Tannoy, Vandersteen, Magnepan, Dayens, Vista Audio, Holographic Audio, Lamm Industries, Soullution, and, and, and....

I don't know how to say this without coming across like a d***, but what you're saying isn't a fact. Especially when it comes to hi-fi. The aforementioned brands are but a few that (rightfully) pride themselves on excellent design and craftsmanship.

The bottom line is that we're all lucky. There's a tremendous amount of excellent gear out there to enjoy, and it certainly doesn't take a back seat to what was offered 'back in the day'.
 
Bro.. McIntosh is just one brand.

How about: Nagra, Bryston, Tidal, Rockport, Wilson Audio, Luxman, Conrad Johnson, Karan Acoustics, Vitus Audio, MBL, Harbeth, Dynaudio, Avantgarde, Rosso Fiorentino, Focal, Revel, Living Voice, Trenner and Friedl, Totem Acoustic, Odyssey Audio, Grado, Rogue Audio, Blue Circle Audio, Spendor, Klipsch Heritage line, D'Agostino, Accuphase, Audio Research, Ayre, Graff, Gryphon Audio, Magico, MIT Cables , Skogrand cables, Pass Labs, Stax, Tannoy, Vandersteen, Magnepan, Dayens, Vista Audio, Holographic Audio, Lamm Industries, Soullution, and, and, and....

I don't know how to say this without coming across like a d***, but what you're saying isn't a fact. Especially when it comes to hi-fi. The aforementioned brands are but a few that (rightfully) pride themselves on excellent design and craftsmanship.

The bottom line is that we're all lucky. There's a tremendous amount of excellent gear out there to enjoy, and it certainly doesn't take a back seat to what was offered 'back in the day'.

The aforementioned brands are but a few that (rightfully) pride themselves on excellent design and craftsmanship.
I would like to add, service.
 
Fewer hi-end today is built as well with quality components and attention to detail. Those that are crafted well, are ridiculously costly.

Build quality compromise is creeping into the best of the reputable hi-end brands also. Even though most hi-end is hand assembled, fewer components are being hand-built. The sum of parts are made in China.

The world placed their faith in China to be the manufacturing capital of the world. That decision was based on short term economic greed. The future has not yet been written but there are dire consequences for being greedy.

As for Samsung, they engineer everything with a used by date. I would never buy a Samsung TV, washer or phone. They carry few spare parts and any statutory warranty claim will be met with a collection and depreciated cheque or a lessor current model. The engineered life for a TV is 3000 hours and all warranties are typically 12 months. There have been massive safety recalls on Samsung whitegoods in Australia because they have been built with inferior or even lacking components.

@Zero...I would not count all of those Hi-Fi brands as quality hi-end. Some of them used to be before the indirect consequences of globalisation kicked in and began hurting bottom lines.
 
Bro.. McIntosh is just one brand.

How about: Nagra, Bryston, Tidal, Rockport, Wilson Audio, Luxman, Conrad Johnson, Karan Acoustics, Vitus Audio, MBL, Harbeth, Dynaudio, Avantgarde, Rosso Fiorentino, Focal, Revel, Living Voice, Trenner and Friedl, Totem Acoustic, Odyssey Audio, Grado, Rogue Audio, Blue Circle Audio, Spendor, Klipsch Heritage line, D'Agostino, Accuphase, Audio Research, Ayre, Graff, Gryphon Audio, Magico, MIT Cables , Skogrand cables, Pass Labs, Stax, Tannoy, Vandersteen, Magnepan, Dayens, Vista Audio, Holographic Audio, Lamm Industries, Soullution, and, and, and....

I don't know how to say this without coming across like a d***, but what you're saying isn't a fact. Especially when it comes to hi-fi. The aforementioned brands are but a few that (rightfully) pride themselves on excellent design and craftsmanship.

The bottom line is that we're all lucky. There's a tremendous amount of excellent gear out there to enjoy, and it certainly doesn't take a back seat to what was offered 'back in the day'.

I don't mind you coming across like a d***. I am not wounded. You have not attacked me personally. But offering up great discussion and I respect it. Keep it coming.

Do you have the empiracle evidence that not a single aforementioned brand has not succumbed to ANY “build quality has dropped regardless of capability.” Have you opened up and evaluated the product brands you mentioned? Have you verified by opening up the chassis to visually inspect that no cheap parts were used? Can you substantiate that not a single brand you mentioned did not cut a single corner but every piece of equipment is built to highest standards [and, what is defined as the highest standard. What is the baseline?].

As an example, my empiracle experience and observation. I purchased the ClearAudio Double Matrix Sonic, Klaudio, AudioDesk and VPI HW27 and ran test after test and my personal observation is that a couple of the units are junk, not only with cleaning but build quality. Am I right? I don't know. It's just my observation and experience...I can attest that I own all 4, extensively used and have opened them up and examined all the inner workings, looked over the parts used...compared, etc. These are all top of the line expensive RCMs. As marketing would have it, these RCM manufactures "pride themselves on excellent design and craftsmanship". Just words - Marketing. Manufactures cut corners and that means “build quality has dropped regardless of capability.”

Hi end audio is not philanthropy. Money must be made to stay alive as a business and complete.
 
I gotta ask you something. You keep uttering this 'brand quality has dropped' sentiment. As compared to what? For this discussion to bear any kind of fruit, there needs to be a solid foundation to build upon.
 
I gotta ask you something. You keep uttering this 'brand quality has dropped' sentiment. As compared to what? For this discussion to bear any kind of fruit, there needs to be a solid foundation to build upon.

Earlier, as an example, I mentioned McIntosh...and McIntosh by no means is a budget brand. I have stated that for example, the MB100 is just crap...and the only reason the quality of it elevated is because I replaced internal parts. Elberoth if he sees this post would chime in deep disappointment with the MB100...frankly, I think he was disgusted with the build quality. And this is just one example.

As I mentioned either here or on AA, this is why I have been scrambling to buy older McIntosh products such as the MDA1000. I love the McIntosh branded look but there new products are moving towards the quality build as say...Bose.

Steve is an expert here... there is a reason he has invested heavily into older machinery such as the Studer R2R and Tape/Tuner products.

Zero, it is not just audio products, it cars, tvs, washer/dryers, LED lights, etc. Even Apple's products are starting to show a lesser quality build.


David
 
Golucid -

So let me get this straight. You had a bad experience with one brand, and now you're using that single bad experience to suggest that an entire industry is going to pot? Come on man... You're smarter than that.

Anyways bud, if you firmly believe that the bulk of todays hi-fi companies are more about hoarding profits and casting ethics to the wind than building gear that doesn't suck, then I won't bother trying to convince you otherwise. It's your opinion to have. The good news is that there are plenty of excellent vintage components out there in need of love n' care.
 
Golucid -

So let me get this straight. You had a bad experience with one brand, and now you're using that single bad experience to suggest that an entire industry is going to pot? Come on man... You're smarter than that.

Anyways bud, if you firmly believe that the bulk of todays hi-fi companies are more about hoarding profits and casting ethics to the wind than building gear that doesn't suck, then I won't bother trying to convince you otherwise. It's your opinion to have. The good news is that there are plenty of excellent vintage components out there in need of love n' care.

Buddy, slow down. It's all good. No where did I suggest or imply that the world has come to an end. Peace dude... I've watched your videos and know you are a kewl dude. Peace man. Peace :)

I have had multiple experiences with brands - I discussed McIntosh. I also listed other brands: audio, washers/dryers, cars, etc.

Love your passion! Keep rock'n
 
haha Believe it or not, the perspective that I'm attempting to lay down is more of a glass half-full one. Yes, there are companies like McIntosh that are changing - and not for the better in my opinion. Yet for every McIntosh situation, there is at least one other company that still adheres to what this thread defines as "old-fashioned" ethics.

As for other industries.. Yep. There's plenty of compromise going around. To be fair though, one could argue that this behavior is nothing new. Especially when it comes to cars, TV's, appliances, and cameras. As a funny aside, I *do* agree with Steves assessment of Samsung.

Oh, and Apple has always been compromised. *mic drop*

:D
 
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