Audio Myths?

I have found them useful for me. I have also learned from watching them that half million dollar systems can play back a single female vocalist, who would have imagined that? :)
Never heard a YouTube video of a system that didn’t sound like shit.

Correction sound real.
 
Despite the lower audio resolution, when well done, music videos and live recordings on YouTube can actually be more engaging than high-resolution audio alone. That is because the video (HD video specially) brings the visual element and that helps the viewer become more involved/engaged with the music. (Just to be clear, I am not referring to YouTube videos of an audio system).
 
It's pretty simple reasoning. A mono recording, using a cheap microphone recording at 192k MP4, would be laughed at in any discussion of high (or even medium) quality sound. A stereo recording with a decent mic preamp, a pair of Schoeps, Neumann or DPA mics using a binaural head (since headphone listening is the only way to take the listener's own room out of the way), and at least 16/44.1 PCM could be worth consideration; can you give me a link to one of these?

Who said anything about mono recordings? I use a $150 Shure MV88 small stereo condensor mic that plugs right into my iPhone. Though I will say that the tiny built-in mics ain't half bad - just not very consistent and not stereo. So it sounds like if in-room recordings met your criteria, there could be some value?

Interesting. Ok, so you’ve got high uncompromising standards regarding what you’ll expose your ears for playback music. That sounds really good and I’m sure many appreciate that. But let’s take a peek at your uncompromising high standards.

It’s a given that in-room recordings are an inferior audio format. But what isn't for that matter? Do you really think you're listening to an uncompromising SOTA-level playback system? Has it occurred to you that if (and it is so) there's even one playback system more accurate and more musical than yours, you're already listening to or enjoying a significantly compromised playback presentation?

As for your presentation on your "inferior" playback system? For sake of argument, let's assume you prefer listening to Redbook PCM formatted recordings and you're listening to a track that consumes 50MB of storage on the recording. PCM is already a bit compromising, right?

Listening to playback music in your room implies all 50MB of the music info embedded in and read from a given recording must pass thru a minimum of two discriminating noise floors. One is your playback system’s electrically-induced noise floor and the other is the acoustic noise floor established by your speaker / room interaction. Noise floors with any raised threshold of any sort will guarantee that some-to-much of that 50MB of music info read from the recording will remain inaudible by the time it reaches/doesn’t reach your speaker drivers (electrical) and then from the speaker drivers to your ears from your listening spot (acoustic). Not to mention the corruption of percentages of the music that remains audible to you. All said and done, some-to-much of that 50MB read, your ears just might be hearing significant percentages less than the 50MB. Depending on how fastidious you are with addressing these two rather significant noise floors.

Of course, you’re only able to hear that significantly less percentage of the entire 50MB of music info available for your listening pleasure assuming …

1. Your hearing is perfect.
2. Your ability to discern / interpret what you’re able to hear is infallible.
3. Your system is already receiving perfectly clean, superior AC from the street including exactly 120v or 240v at the outlets.
4. Your recordings are all perfectly-engineered recordings without any flaw.

Then again, if there’s even a single shortcoming in any of the above, I’d venture we’re able to establish that, just like the rest of us, you and others like you already have to use your imagination a bit when you listen to the compromised presentation from your playback system. But that’s also assuming you know exactly what that 50MB ought to sound like if you could hear all 50MB at your ear. And of course we also could probably agree that no recording captures the entirety of the live performance, right?

Given the above, it seems to me your high standard of listening has already been significantly compromised and at perhaps every turn. IOW, we all face these same compromises to one good degree or another and we all have to use our imaginations when listening to any playback system. So what's wrong with using your imagination a bit more than you already are?

Nobody's saying in-room recordings are competing with in-room experiences. So why would you take that position as if that's what you're up against?

Some say in-room recordings deserve no credence but I can think of a number of reasons why one might think this way. And none of them are positive.

But I will say in-room recordings are potentially quite valuable. Yes, in-room recordings fall way short in some areas like only able to produce little more than a remnant of the entire gestalt experienced in the listening room. And there's much to be said for hearing music outside the head filling the room rather than inside filling the head. But there are many characteristics that are well preserved including but not limited to sibilance vs negative sibilance, how pristine or detailed the original recording might be, tonality, warmth, timbre, etc, and if you pretend you’re a bug sitting on your pituitary gland, you just might hear some fairly reasonable soundstaging.

And depending on the quality of an in-room recording in-room videos also can be quite educational. That's why we're here, right? To improve our knowledge or game, whatever that might be? There are some downright nasty in-room recordings I've heard in the forums but there are also some fairly outstanding recordings too. Hmmmmmm, just like our playback systems maybe? But educational in that we’re able to get a glimpse of where somebody’s coming from. Do their words and system aesthetics measure even remotely close to their in-room video? Then there’s those who provide feedback on in-room videos, and those who choose to remain mum too. It’s really just more information to potentially better round out where we and others are coming from. That’s all potentially educational.

In-room videos may not be the best way to learn but then neither are many of our playback systems. And they may not be the best way to separate the wheat from the chaff but it's a start and it continues to improve much like other technologies.

And the best part of in-room recordings is that you don’t even have to believe in them to listen to a few of them or even produce a few of your own. And maybe learn a thing or two in the process.
 
That's a prolonged (and mostly irrelevant, IMHO) answer to a simple question. Perhaps if I described my criteria (which I freely admit may not apply to others) better you can provide a better answer.

For much of my younger life (when my hearing was better even if my experience and judgement were less) I would attend and record live music events (amplified, non-amplified, both large and small venue), using equipment ranging from relatively inexpensive Sony electret condenser mics and 152 - D5 cassette recorders up through AKG and B&K (now DPA) mics into Nagra, Revox and Tandberg R2R. Even admitting that aural memory of events can be influenced by a variety of factors, the opportunity to relisten to recordings of attended events, especially through a high-quality headphone system (as I mentioned, really essential to take the listener's own room out of the sonic comparison) gives one a good reference database for evaluating recordings of this type, which would include in-room recordings of audio systems (and I even did some of these, using some of the different recording systems I noted).

My point? Simply that (unsurprisingly) the difference in sound quality between recording setups, and thus the ability to assess the "accuracy" of the reproduction of the recorded event, was/is significant. So yes, if the recordings of different "events" (in-room systems) are recorded in a consistent fashion it is possible to make some comparative judgements, but (again, IMO) those are basically useless for absolute judgements to anyone but the person recording. So even if one can come to a determination about which system sounds better (between a few systems recorded in this way) in the recording, it is hard (or perhaps impossible) for any other listener to determine whether one or any of the systems recorded in-room are good, bad, mediocre or outstanding.

So sure, your own recordings of your system or other systems can certainly be of value to you, but probably not anyone else, with the possible exception of a high-quality recording (in terms of equipment, positioning etc) which might be of some limited value to others familiar with the "sound" of your recordings.

Given the apparent popularity of viewing in-room recordings posted on the Internet, this is obviously one of those YMMV situations, like so much in the world of audiophilia. It also (unfortunately) reinforces my opinion about the relevance of many others' posted opinions (and their opinions of themselves :lol:.)
 
That's a prolonged (and mostly irrelevant, IMHO) answer to a simple question. Perhaps if I described my criteria (which I freely admit may not apply to others) better you can provide a better answer.

For much of my younger life (when my hearing was better even if my experience and judgement were less) I would attend and record live music events (amplified, non-amplified, both large and small venue), using equipment ranging from relatively inexpensive Sony electret condenser mics and 152 - D5 cassette recorders up through AKG and B&K (now DPA) mics into Nagra, Revox and Tandberg R2R. Even admitting that aural memory of events can be influenced by a variety of factors, the opportunity to relisten to recordings of attended events, especially through a high-quality headphone system (as I mentioned, really essential to take the listener's own room out of the sonic comparison) gives one a good reference database for evaluating recordings of this type, which would include in-room recordings of audio systems (and I even did some of these, using some of the different recording systems I noted).

My point? Simply that (unsurprisingly) the difference in sound quality between recording setups, and thus the ability to assess the "accuracy" of the reproduction of the recorded event, was/is significant. So yes, if the recordings of different "events" (in-room systems) are recorded in a consistent fashion it is possible to make some comparative judgements, but (again, IMO) those are basically useless for absolute judgements to anyone but the person recording. So even if one can come to a determination about which system sounds better (between a few systems recorded in this way) in the recording, it is hard (or perhaps impossible) for any other listener to determine whether one or any of the systems recorded in-room are good, bad, mediocre or outstanding.

So sure, your own recordings of your system or other systems can certainly be of value to you, but probably not anyone else, with the possible exception of a high-quality recording (in terms of equipment, positioning etc) which might be of some limited value to others familiar with the "sound" of your recordings.

Given the apparent popularity of viewing in-room recordings posted on the Internet, this is obviously one of those YMMV situations, like so much in the world of audiophilia. It also (unfortunately) reinforces my opinion about the relevance of many others' posted opinions (and their opinions of themselves :lol:.)





Sorry, I was unaware that you had a specific question as I thought I was just opposing your position. If you had a question, please repeat it.

And yes, it's a given that YMMV. That's actually a very good point because as with most anything, the results we experience is usually determined by the amount of effort put into it, right?

But with all due respect your stated past experiences may or may not be relevant to anybody including yourself regarding this or perhaps other subjects. It all depends, right? No offense but I'm sure you know of mechanics with 25+ years of experience you wouldn't want to work on your vehicle.

I find it interesting that when it comes to in-room recordings you insist on consistency. I’m not aware of any real consistency anywhere within high-end audio. Enthusiasts and professionals alike, their playback systems, even their remedies are all over the map. But you insist on some type of in-room recording consistency or you ain’t buying it? Difficult to comprehend.

When you argue such things as mono recordings, consistency, etc., IMO I think I see somebody who’s trying to justify their preconceived narratives. If so and considering the power of preconceived narratives, I imagine you won't be swayed in another direction for some time. I could be wrong but since I’ve created and listened to a number of in-room videos and you haven’t, it’s hard to see another explanation. Regardless, from my experiences I see potential value and education with in-room recordings. Including learning how to get the most from them as I’m quite the amateur.

But more important, with so much music available on the internet in various forms, in many cases if somebody publishes an in-room recording and say I’m struggling with what I hear in that video, many times I can go out to Youtube to find the “official” version of that piece. Sure it’s all limited to some degree but for the first time we’re actually able to occasionally compare apples-to-applea rather than apples-to-oranges. Or apples-to-somebody’s-words – which in comparison ought to be silly.

Is this not yet another opportunity where in-room recordings can be quite educational for anybody engaged? For example. Above is an in-room recording (Youtube) I recently generated and above that there’s Telarc’s official release of the exact same piece also on Youtube. If I stop right there, is not even that the least bit intriguing if not educational? At least for the in-room video's creator?

The Youtube version is streamed without any influence from my playback system or its noise floor nor is it influenced by the acoustic noise floor induced by my speakers’ interaction with my room. Then there’s my video which passes thru my dirty AC, my inferior system and its noise floor and my speaker/room interaction and its noise floor including any potential expansion of sound between my speaker drivers and my ears, errr hummmm, my recording mic/iPhone IOW, the ambient influences my room brings to the ambient influences in the recording, and my in-room volume/mic gain are guaranteed to be inaccurate.

Seriously. With just a little imagination, we have before us for perhaps the first time, the ability to perform some type of side-by-side comparison between what we hear in our room with the original recording and otherwise both facing the same common denominators e.g. Youtube, headphones, etc. I have difficulty comprehending how others can’t or choose not to see some of these potential values or educational opportunities.

Since the live performance occurred in a moment in time and is now gone forever, I’m guessing this Telarc recording is the best thing we/I have. From an internet/headphone perspective anyway.

And it seems to me we now have something tangible to compare and contrast – rather than just take others’ potentially inconsistent and inaccurate word (many words) for it.

The more I think about it, the more I’d compare the controversies of in-room videos and their potential quality to headphones. Sure, there’s some stellar headphones out there. But I’ve yet to hear a pair come close to the actual in-room experience. Do you ever listen with headphones? ;)
 
Good Video Stehno!

Detail, fast with good timbre contrast!
Can you put again the link to the original youtube video?

Let´s take some other examples?

What i hear in this video below:
A rich and tonal bass, plenty of texture.
I don´t know if i ever heard live, such good bass :weird:

(of course i can´t say anything about the overall system performance, but the bass seems to be pretty good)

Ascendo System MS,Line Magnetic LM-219iA,Aries Cerat Kassandra II - YouTube
 
My question was/is: can you point me to an in-room recording made with high-quality mics (even something like DPA 2006) and a binaural head with at least 16/44.1 PCM recording?

Listening to a small sampling of Internet YouTube recordings I can certainly hear differences, but without a good reference can't come close to making an absolute judgement about the sound, only how it compares to other recordings.

WRT to the YouTube recordings in your post, compression artifacts dominate the sound quality; whether or not this is why the in-room recording "breaks up" in the louder sections I don't know.

You can denigrate my experience all you like; I'm comfortable enough having compared it to fairly well-recognized reviewers/listeners, e.g. M. Fremer, Gary L Koh and others, with whom I have spent enough time at shows and at home listening sessions and sharing opinions.

OTOH, I haven't read anything in your posts here or at WBF to convince me of yours, and of course we have no direct experience with each other's audio processing abilities. That's not a criticism, merely an observation. Focus on the question posed above, please.
Edit: it probably needs to be via a link to something like a Gdrive file, since YouTube doesn't have audio quality better than 256k AAC.
 
My question was/is: can you point me to an in-room recording made with high-quality mics (even something like DPA 2006) and a binaural head with at least 16/44.1 PCM recording?

Listening to a small sampling of Internet YouTube recordings I can certainly hear differences, but without a good reference can't come close to making an absolute judgement about the sound, only how it compares to other recordings.

WRT to the YouTube recordings in your post, compression artifacts dominate the sound quality; whether or not this is why the in-room recording "breaks up" in the louder sections I don't know.

You can denigrate my experience all you like; I'm comfortable enough having compared it to fairly well-recognized reviewers/listeners, e.g. M. Fremer, Gary L Koh and others, with whom I have spent enough time at shows and at home listening sessions and sharing opinions.

OTOH, I haven't read anything in your posts here or at WBF to convince me of yours, and of course we have no direct experience with each other's audio processing abilities. That's not a criticism, merely an observation. Focus on the question posed above, please.
Edit: it probably needs to be via a link to something like a Gdrive file, since YouTube doesn't have audio quality better than 256k AAC.

here ya go....

Listen to a ONE MILLION DOLLAR hi-fi system from Aries Cerat! - YouTube
 
My question was/is: can you point me to an in-room recording made with high-quality mics (even something like DPA 2006) and a binaural head with at least 16/44.1 PCM recording?

Listening to a small sampling of Internet YouTube recordings I can certainly hear differences, but without a good reference can't come close to making an absolute judgement about the sound, only how it compares to other recordings.

WRT to the YouTube recordings in your post, compression artifacts dominate the sound quality; whether or not this is why the in-room recording "breaks up" in the louder sections I don't know.

You can denigrate my experience all you like; I'm comfortable enough having compared it to fairly well-recognized reviewers/listeners, e.g. M. Fremer, Gary L Koh and others, with whom I have spent enough time at shows and at home listening sessions and sharing opinions.

OTOH, I haven't read anything in your posts here or at WBF to convince me of yours, and of course we have no direct experience with each other's audio processing abilities. That's not a criticism, merely an observation. Focus on the question posed above, please.
Edit: it probably needs to be via a link to something like a Gdrive file, since YouTube doesn't have audio quality better than 256k AAC.

Hey, rbbert. Sorry if you took my comment as denegrading your experience as that was not my intention in the least. But I was bringing it into question, which I think very reasonable considering I don't know you and I've no real clue what your experience actually includes, whether it was 10 or 60 years ago, whether you were a snot-nosed brat consumed by alcohol flying by the seat of your pants or if you were an extremely fastisious and studious gent back then or even now. It's just not reasonable for me to assume anything here. And hopefully we can agree there always exists the potential for bad as well as good experience, right?

As for the two videos I provided above, I'm not saying mine's on par with the official video. I merely presented the two videos to demonstrate how we (the masses) are able to for perhaps the first time actually perform some type of apples-to-apples comparison between what we have in our rooms verses the closest thing available (to we the masses) to the live performance. But you seem to be saying, it's not good enough?

The "official" Telarc video on Youtube is not a good reference? Hmmmmm. My intention here in my example above was to provide perhaps the best reference most of us can get our hands on. The exact same recording via Youtube and same headphones but entirely by-passing any of my system and/or room's shortcomings. Sure it's a lower common denominator playback quality but the important thing here is, it's a common denominator. Perhaps not good enough for your high standards but I can't think of any reason why it's not a good enough reference for me and perhaps other less discriminating types. Especially since it seems I have the exact same version in my library.

As for any breakup in the louder sections, the only part I hear potential break up is the introductory note at the very beginning of the track. It's not a loud piece and it certainly is not a strenuous or torturous piece by any means. IME, generating in-room recordings isn't the easiest thing in the world as there are numerous system and/or recording limitations one must flirt with just to ensure the listener isn't bored. For example. When i generate an in-room recording my in-room music is usually playing anywhere from 98 - 105db (depending on the genre) to help ensure at least some of the gestalt makes it to the tiny stereo mic 8 - 10 ft in front of the speakers. In-room volume levels combined with recording mic gain levels is a bit of a crap shoot for me so there's always potential for a little recording mic overload from time to time. But I'm learning.

As for my searching for you a particular type of recording on the internet, I'll leave that to you. But I see that Lavigne provided one for you and among other things, I fail to hear any benefit of using a biaural head and associated mics for recording. At least with the music demo'ed in that video.

Funny that Mike provided that video. The first comment there in that video is mine from about a year ago. Overall, I thought then, as well as now, what the $1M price might get the owner execept maybe some visual oooo's and aaaahhhh's from the easily impressed types?
 
Good Video Stehno!

Detail, fast with good timbre contrast!
Can you put again the link to the original youtube video?

.....

Thanks, Spock. Not sure what to make of your question though. Can you restate it?
 
I just stumbled across this and this guy is kinda funny (and probably right about most of it; not that it'll stop me from spending my money in equally probably stupid ways....). That accent always makes people seem smarter to me and somehow makes the smarmimess more forgivable. ymmv /shrug

A MILLION DOLLAR AUDIO SYSTEM? - YouTube
 
'j' , I must admit, I had a good laugh !!:lol:

I suspect though there is a segment of audiophiles out there that would get their panties in a bind over it though !
 
Back
Top