Are Legacy turntables better than newer models ?

ohbythebay

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This will spark a debate (a friendly one) but hear me out.

Many things have a golden age where production reaches a pinnacle of quality and performance. For the purpose of this postulation, I am speaking about sub $2000 tables. The quality tables of the 60's, 70's and early 80's would also be measured in different dollars. For example:

$1 in 1970 is about $5.37 today

So spending approx. $500 in 1970 on a turntable, was a major purchase, equivalent to a $2000 purchase today and what I am going to show you demonstrates the quality of that purchase. Regardless of the fact that today, used, that table may sell for $300 to $600 used, you are getting the quality of a $2000 table. Not convinced ? Lets take a look.

One of the things better legacy tables were known for was very low wow and flutter percentages and high DB signal to noise ratios. This is significant because wow and flutter is directly correlated to how your sound will be reproduced. Wow will present pitch variation while flutter is generally speed variation. I am generalizing here but basically, too high a percentage is bad.

So what is the comparison? In many ways it is hard to tell because so many of the current companies don't want to tell you their wow and flutter numbers. I can tell you that after much research, companies like REGA, ClearAudio, VPI, Music Hall, etc. have wow and flutter specs ranging from .08 to .2% Doesn't sound like much right ? Until you compare.

SO many of the legacy tables (both belt and DD) have wow and flutter specs as low as .015 and many average .025 to .045. You are talking about imperceptible variation in pitch and speed meaning, piano's, oboes, flutes, etc. will sound cleaner. But why ? Simple production demand.

When there is high demand for something, production quality and competition drive that quality curve up. If you want to stay in business, be competitive and differentiate your product, you better make sure your stuff is "da bomb". The same occurred in the hayday of tubes. When there was high demand, high output and facilities dedicated to making awesome tubes, you get those famous tubes of the 50's and 60's that are so much cleaner that todays reproductions.

Now, some of those older tables may have seemed cheesy. A lot of plastic, etc. But inside those units was quite a bit of sophistication and circuitry designed to deliver. For example, quartz speed control, signal cutoff so no sound was produced while cueing. This was important because many units were auto or semi-auto. Anti-resonance arms are another example.

Now where todays tables excel is in construction material (for damping), platter material (no more metal ringing bells) and tonearm design. What they have sacrificed is speed control, automated functions and variety.

Variety you say ? Look at todays tables. Plinth, platter, arm, a control or two. A Rega looks like a VPI, looks like a Clearaudio which looks like a Music Hall. Auto or semi auto is out of the question. Primary updates to technology have focused on arms and platters. But is all of this really better ?

I want to be clear, I love my Clearaudio Concept table. But I know, that for the same price, I could make a pristine legacy table sound just as good. Examples ?
  • Pioneer PL-530
  • Sansui SR-929
  • Marantz 6350
  • Sony PS-X7
  • Dual 721

For under $500, any of these (plus many more) would be a sweat addition to any system

You can find a million specs and info here:
Free Turntable Manuals | Owners, Service, Schematics & Brochures | Vinyl Engine

So where do newer tables shine? Get above $2000 and you start to see some real quality and innovation. VPI Classics. Higher end Clearaudio.

Bottom line...if you can only spend 1970 dollars ($500 or so), a legacy table is a great choice.
 
This is exactly what we need, more posts in the analog section.

Some of those old tables are sweet for sure, but I think they were few and far between. Today it seems as though many of the tables available are of decent quality in terms of materials, construction and sound. How many of those 70's and 80's tables actually sounded good? Even something like an entry level Rega would knock the socks off many of those older tables in terms of sound quality.

I do appreciate the tables of past with their automatic functions and dust covers. Who knew that some forty or so years later a dust cover would be an aftermarket accessory? :what:
 
Great post. Some of the owners of great hi end audio agree - eg ralph over atma sphere uses a modded empire table.


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Well you got me feeling good. Rob? Bob? I bought a Sony PS 8750 from a friend - dealer. It started having a small problem, the guy was very good about it, offered to refund my money or get it repaired. I opted to repair it plus wrote about here and it Mike suggested to get another table. I did that too! Classic 1 from Steve Petro85. I try and refrain using the word better but I tell you what. Taken consideration prices, etc. The Sony is pretty good....
 
I now zilch about analog...i am strictly redbook. But I have met one dealer who owns the Rockport Sirius III, and has access to pretty much everything...including Clearaudio Statement which he also showed me...or whatever their super-reference TT is...and he said he still finds the Rockport to be his favourite TT of all time.
 
Yes, it does vary from table to table...And I would not hold them up to say a VPI Classic or Clearaudio Inovation...but those sub $1500 to $2000...well..give me that old Marantz 6350Q or Pioneer 530..or some of the ones I listed...they were incredible and more than a match...especially with the right matched MC cart, phonostage...sweetness..plus they looked cool too.

This is not to say if you have a few grand, don't spend it..not at all...but if you DONT have that...you can be completely blown away by something 40 years old....
 
Bottom line...if you can only spend 1970 dollars ($500 or so), a legacy table is a great choice.

agreed and with that being said the Technics table has been a cult favorite of that era, one which has only been discontinued recently. Myself I had a Kenwood KD-500 back in 'the day', mated with a Premier MMT arm and Grace F9e cartridge…..it would hold it's own with a lot of what's out there today for sure
 
Biggest take away or me... I enjoy listening to vinyl 2-3 times more than any digital format. To my ears nothing sounds as right as vinyl on a good turntable/arm/cartridge. DP


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Biggest take away or me... I enjoy listening to vinyl 2-3 times more than any digital format. To my ears nothing sounds as right as vinyl on a good turntable/arm/cartridge. DP


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I agree ...and there is listening and there is ...listening...Its why I have two tables. My primary LISTENING table right now is Clearaudio Concept, Concept MC cart and Phonomena II phono stage. This is for when I am in the music room, in my chair, LISTENING.

But sometimes I like to listen to vinyl and not be there. Doing chores in the house, in and out of the garage. For that, I have a mediocre table (Pioneer PL-500) with a decent MM cart (AT440Mla) because, it is full auto. I can put on a favorite album and not worry if I get back to it 10 minutes after it stops playing.

I am currently looking at a project clunker. A really good pioneer that needs LOVE and AFFECTION. Going to strip it completely, paint it, put a good cart on it and zing...will have a killer second table for about $100...I love projects. Like restore an old car...only cheaper...LOL
 
I agree ...and there is listening and there is ...listening...Its why I have two tables. My primary LISTENING table right now is Clearaudio Concept, Concept MC cart and Phonomena II phono stage. This is for when I am in the music room, in my chair, LISTENING.

But sometimes I like to listen to vinyl and not be there. Doing chores in the house, in and out of the garage. For that, I have a mediocre table (Pioneer PL-500) with a decent MM cart (AT440Mla) because, it is full auto. I can put on a favorite album and not worry if I get back to it 10 minutes after it stops playing.

I am currently looking at a project clunker. A really good pioneer that needs LOVE and AFFECTION. Going to strip it completely, paint it, put a good cart on it and zing...will have a killer second table for about $100...I love projects. Like restore an old car...only cheaper...LOL

Excellent - vinyl everywhere. I have 2 tables and could go for a third. Btw there is a nifty little gadget u can buy that will pick up your arm automatically when it reaches end of record.


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I agree older tables have alot of value, I've got a Music Hall MMF7 and an Empire 598 Troubadour. The problem with older tables is getting them repaired/restored which usually means shipping them.
 

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I agree older tables have alot of value, I've got a Music Hall MMF7 and an Empire 598 Troubadour. The problem with older tables is getting them repaired/restored which usually means shipping them.

I love the Empire tables. I had a 698 with Grado feeding into NAD preamp and modified hafler amp with lamp cord to a pair of Maggies. Awesome!!


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Unless of course...you work on them yourself !!!

I have found it not that difficult - most of the service manuals are at vinylengine. And its rewarding...So I guess there is room for old and new...

One of the hardest I had to work on but had the best results in the end...Dual 721 ..Had to fix a hum, rewire the tonearm (to get rid of the awful sled design) and clean up the speed control...in the end,,,beautiful.

In the end I sold it to a guy who wanted it for a console system he restored...it was a perfect fit in the turntable area with the base I had built around it...A table with at least 3 lives !!!

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