AP Mastering on DAC's

[Soundbaron]

I came across an entertaining fellow who's a professional mastering engineer on a channel called "AP MASTERING" recently, and if nothing else two of the videos he's put up called "The DAC Delusion," and "The DAC Scam" are informationally provocative to say the least. Anyway, he puts forth notions on High End DAC's that for some might be a little shocking, but for which he provides quite a bit of evidence. I'd be personally interested in what some of the more technically inclined among us think of these two specific videos, after watching them of course. I'm new on this site so I don't know if this would be considered a contentious subject, but if so please lets not have any unpleasantness over it.

 

[Mr Peabody]

Maybe you could provide links to be sure we watch the exact video you are talking about and to save time.

There is much more that goes into a DAC than just the chip. In fact, some now have discrete circuits and no DAC chip. There's clocking, jitter and noise reduction, filtering, the analog circuitry after the digital conversion. And, arguably most important power supply.

There's always those trying to build a following by bashing high end and "audiophiles". Please don't fall for the crap all DAC's sound the same and my cheap DAC is just as good stuff. If you enjoy what you have that's great. I guarantee unless you are a hermit you will find something that sound better eventually.

It's like if I told you once you've had vanilla ice cream it's all the same. Hopefully your ears work or learn to discern as well as your taste buds

 

[nicoff]

This is the YouTube video that the OP is referring to: The DAC Delusion

 

[nicoff]

To the OP:
In the audiophile world you’ll often hear about objectivists vs subjectivists.

Objectivists rely on measurements and data, pointing out that many “legends” in hi-fi are just myths or marketing. For them, DACs are basically a solved problem—plenty of affordable options measure as well as the pricey ones.

Subjectivists, on the other hand, mostly ignore the facts and go purely by what their ears tell them. Gear choice is based on personal impressions, not on what can actually be measured.

The video is clearly from an objectivist angle. At the end of the day, the facts are the same for everyone—but how much weight you give them depends on your preference.

 

[Soundbaron]

To the OP:
In the audiophile world you’ll often hear about objectivists vs subjectivists.

Objectivists rely on measurements and data, pointing out that many “legends” in hi-fi are just myths or marketing. For them, DACs are basically a solved problem—plenty of affordable options measure as well as the pricey ones.

Subjectivists, on the other hand, mostly ignore the facts and go purely by what their ears tell them. Gear choice is based on personal impressions, not on what can actually be measured.

The video is clearly from an objectivist angle. At the end of the day, the facts are the same for everyone—but how much weight you give them depends on your preference.

Actually there's a video he made just before this called the "Dac scam", which really should be seen before the one you posted to get the full context, because it delves into a little bit of the phycology. If his poll is on the up & up it certainly appears to provide some strong evidence that people can't hear a difference. Nonetheless, given the relative lack of interest I'm not sure it's worth the bother, or if it really matters beyond being interesting from my perspective.

 

[nicoff]

Actually there's a video he made just before this called the "Dac scam", which really should be seen before the one you posted to get the full context, because it delves into a little bit of the phycology. If his poll is on the up & up it certainly appears to provide some strong evidence that people can't hear a difference. Nonetheless, given the relative lack of interest I'm not sure it's worth the bother, or if it really matters beyond being interesting from my perspective.

You should realize that the majority of folks in this forum belong to the subjectivists camp. Therefore, they most likely believe that DACs sound different.
If you want to hear from the objectivist camp, visit sites like ASR. There, you will find proponents of the views shown in the video that you referred to..

 

[Soundbaron]

You should realize that the majority of folks in this forum belong to the subjectivists camp. Therefore, they most likely believe that DACs sound different.
If you want to hear from the objectivist camp, visit sites like ASR. There, you will find proponents of the views shown in the video that you referred to..

I'm not really in either camp, but just have an open mind to different points of view, and credible evidence. I know that in my own experience not every audible difference between amplifiers can be illustrated by objective specs alone, even between units measuring very similarly. So from my point of view that just means there are other factors that they haven't objectively figured out how to quantify yet. But, they are there hiding somewhere.

In any event, I don't feel the need to be on a team and close myself off from learning new things in my hobby, from either the objectivists or subjectivists. I mean without that we're just cultists stubbornly clinging to dogma that supports what we want to believe, and that's no way to live. These emoticons are the worst. He's suppose to be laughing, but he looks constipated.

 

[Randy Myers]

The real issue comes down to neophytes versus long term audiophiles. The Objectivists tend to quote data and "results" from "blind listening" using normal off the street people and/or mostly neophytes. However, audiophiles have learned from listening to high end gear over some time, most of us over a lifetime, and very much support the Subjectivists type of listening.

Learning to listen does take time and does take patience. To know what is truly different in the music, in the gear, etc., is not an ability that people are born with (usually). Just like playing an instrument, or painting a gorgeous picture as examples, usually takes time, a lifetime, to be very good at it.

Listening and understanding Subjective listening does indeed take time and understanding. This is where the Objectivists get it wrong. This is where many forums get it wrong. The forum for my favorite speakers seems to fall on the Objectivists side. It is not that they are wrong it is that they do not trust their ears as much as the numbers coming out of tests. And honestly, this comes straight from the top. Alan Shaw is very much an Objectivists. However, he still makes tremendous speakers. Maybe being an Objectivists works when manufacturing, but over the course of a lifetime Subjectivists works better for many of us. It allows us to find the diamond in the roof that is truly better, either with or without the supporting number (T+A DAC with high level DSD as an example, or the Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2 preamp as another example).

Even though I have decided that tubes are not for me, I would say tube lovers understand this very well.