Anyone interested in some Ethernet cable evaluation info?

The Audioquest Vodka is fuller and richer-sounding than Wireworld Starlight Cat 8, but the soundstage does not extend as wide. The soundstage with the WW Starlight Cat 8 extends well past the speakers and the separation of instruments in the sound field is larger and more spacious, the Vodka just from the middle to the outer edges of my floor-standers and instruments are not as spatially-separated as much as they are on Starlight. The Vodka is harmonically richer and fuller-sounding with greater dynamic slam than Starlight Cat8 and with a deeper soundstage front-to-back, but sting bass not as tightly defined and articulated; its a a bit looser and flabbier than Starlight Cat8. Starlight 8 is just on the lean side of neutral, Vodka is just on the warm side of neutral. Overall, I prefer AQ Vodka to WW Starlight as it is more natural and “musical-sounding”.
 
The Audioquest Vodka is fuller and richer-sounding than Wireworld Starlight Cat 8, but the soundstage does not extend as wide. The soundstage with the WW Starlight Cat 8 extends well past the speakers and the separation of instruments in the sound field is larger and more spacious, the Vodka just from the middle to the outer edges of my floor-standers and instruments are not as spatially-separated as much as they are on Starlight. The Vodka is harmonically richer and fuller-sounding with greater dynamic slam than Starlight Cat8 and with a deeper soundstage front-to-back, but sting bass not as tightly defined and articulated; its a a bit looser and flabbier than Starlight Cat8. Starlight 8 is just on the lean side of neutral, Vodka is just on the warm side of neutral. Overall, I prefer AQ Vodka to WW Starlight as it is more natural and “musical-sounding”.

So if the bass from the Vodka is not as "tightly defined and articulated" and is "a bit loose and flabbier" than the Starlight Cat 8 cable, how can you possibly say that it is more natural and "musical sounding?" Loose and flabby bass has never sounded natural to me nor is it something I want to inject into my system.
 
Hey guys,
I've been evaluating dfiferent Ethernet cables from my downstream FMC to my streamer...
I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know what FMC stands for. I tried Googling it but somehow I don't think it stands for Federal Maritime Commission, in this context. :disbelief:
 
So if the bass from the Vodka is not as "tightly defined and articulated" and is "a bit loose and flabbier" than the Starlight Cat 8 cable, how can you possibly say that it is more natural and "musical sounding?" Loose and flabby bass has never sounded natural to me nor is it something I want to inject into my system.

Ah okay, sorry. So, for clarification and in the interest of accuracy, I didn't say the bass was "looser and flabbier", I said it was a "bit loose and flabbier." The distinction is important becaue the difference is relative. A "bit" means "a little". For string bass, like Ray Brown's bass on Cry Me a River on Soular Energy, its as not as tightly defined and articulated as Starlight. Part of this is because on the whole, Starlight is drier and leaner in overall character than Vodka. This particular characteristic brings slight advantage with respect to reproduction of the timbres of the string bass, specifically. But the dryness and leanness of Starlight provides downsides in other parts of the presentation, overall. Starlight is somewhat on the sterile-sounding side of things. Its nice, don't get me wrong, its just not as nice as Vodka, in my system (ask Mike, components and cables interact to produce different responses in different systems).

With respect to more natural and musical-sounding, I was referring to the overall musical presentation, taken as a whole. Overall, the attributes the Vodka has brings, in my system, a more engaging experience than Starlight Cat8.
 
I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know what FMC stands for. I tried Googling it but somehow I don't think it stands for Federal Maritime Commission, in this context. :disbelief:


FMC is a Fiber Media Convertor. The fiber media convertor accepts an Ethernet cable via an RJ45 jack. It also has an optical transceiver module that accepts a fiber cable. The FMC converts the analog electrial square waves passing down the Ethernet cable's metal (usually copper) conductors into light signals and sends them out via the FMC's optical transceiver output port.

Screen%20Shot%202019-03-28%20at%2012.29.46%20AM.jpg


Because the signals travelling down the fiber are light and not an electromagnetic square wave, fiber is impervious to the effects of EMI, RF, and other high-bandwidth noise and also provides galvanic isolation. This results in a notably quieter noise floor and improved sound quality.

I use two of them, one at the upstream end, and a downstream FMC, near the streamer, and a 7M run of Tripp-LIte fiber instead of a long run of very expensive audiophile-grade Ethernet cable. Instead, I only need a 0.75M length of audiophile-grade Ethernet cable going from the downstream FMC to the Sonore.

Example: A friend of mine on another forum recently bought a 10M run of WW Starlight Cat8. 10M of Starlight Cat8 costs $750. A 10M run of Platinum Starlight costs...$6250! My two TP-Link FMCs and a the run of fiber cost me...$66. Installing it resulted in a noticeable drop in the overall streaming digital front end's noise floor and a much more open, extended and airy top-end.
 
FMC is a Fiber Media Convertor. The fiber media convertor accepts an Ethernet cable via an RJ45 jack. It also has an 850nM optical transceiver module that accepts a fiber cable. The FMC converts the analog electrial square waves passing down the Ethernet cable's metal (usually copper) conductors into light signals and sends them out via the FMC's optical transceiver output port as as light signals.

Because the signals travelling down the fiber are light, fiber is impervious to the effects of EMI, RF, and other high-bandwidth noise and also provides galvanic isolation. This results in a notably quieter noise floor and improved sound quality.

I use two of them, one at the upstream end, and a downstream FMC, near the streamer, and a 7M run of Tripp-LIte fiber instead of a long run of very expensive audiophile-grade Ethernet cable. Instead, I only need a 0.75M length of audiophile-grade Ethernet cable going from the downstream FMC to the Sonore.

Example: A friend of mine on another forum recently bought a 10M run of WW Starlight Cat8. 10M of Starlight Cat8 costs $750. A 10M run of Platinum Starlight costs...$6250! My two TP-Link FMCs and a the run of fiber cost me...$66. Installing it resulted in a noticeable drop in the overall streaming digital front end's noise floor and a much more open, extended and airy top-end.


Stephen, it would be great for some of us, ignorant beginners in streaming, if you provide your exact set-up (with brand names of all devices in the chain).
You seem to find a way of optimising your system without breaking the bank (too much). :thumbsup:
 
I
Ah okay, sorry. So, for clarification and in the interest of accuracy, I didn't say the bass was "looser and flabbier", I said it was a "bit loose and flabbier." The distinction is important becaue the difference is relative. A "bit" means "a little". For string bass, like Ray Brown's bass on Cry Me a River on Soular Energy, its as not as tightly defined and articulated as Starlight. Part of this is because on the whole, Starlight is drier and leaner in overall character than Vodka. This particular characteristic brings slight advantage with respect to reproduction of the timbres of the string bass, specifically. But the dryness and leanness of Starlight provides downsides in other parts of the presentation, overall. Starlight is somewhat on the sterile-sounding side of things. Its nice, don't get me wrong, its just not as nice as Vodka, in my system (ask Mike, components and cables interact to produce different responses in different systems).

With respect to more natural and musical-sounding, I was referring to the overall musical presentation, taken as a whole. Overall, the attributes the Vodka has brings, in my system, a more engaging experience than Starlight Cat8.

I quoted what you said exactly so we can dispense with the word “bit.” I could also infer from what you said that your system tends to be a bit flabby and loose in the bass and the Vodka cable just made it worse. It’s like being a bit pregnant.
 
FMC is a Fiber Media Convertor. The fiber media convertor accepts an Ethernet cable via an RJ45 jack. It also has an optical transceiver module that accepts a fiber cable. The FMC converts the analog electrial square waves passing down the Ethernet cable's metal (usually copper) conductors into light signals and sends them out via the FMC's optical transceiver output port.

Screen%20Shot%202019-03-28%20at%2012.29.46%20AM.jpg


Because the signals travelling down the fiber are light and not an electromagnetic square wave, fiber is impervious to the effects of EMI, RF, and other high-bandwidth noise and also provides galvanic isolation. This results in a notably quieter noise floor and improved sound quality.

I use two of them, one at the upstream end, and a downstream FMC, near the streamer, and a 7M run of Tripp-LIte fiber instead of a long run of very expensive audiophile-grade Ethernet cable. Instead, I only need a 0.75M length of audiophile-grade Ethernet cable going from the downstream FMC to the Sonore.

Example: A friend of mine on another forum recently bought a 10M run of WW Starlight Cat8. 10M of Starlight Cat8 costs $750. A 10M run of Platinum Starlight costs...$6250! My two TP-Link FMCs and a the run of fiber cost me...$66. Installing it resulted in a noticeable drop in the overall streaming digital front end's noise floor and a much more open, extended and airy top-end.

Thank You Puma Cat for your thorough explanation.
 
Stephen, it would be great for some of us, ignorant beginners in streaming, if you provide your exact set-up (with brand names of all devices in the chain).
You seem to find a way of optimising your system without breaking the bank (too much). :thumbsup:

Can do, Bart.

Mac Mini-> (originally generic, now Supra Cat8)1M Ethernet cable > Pace Router > (originally generic, now Supra Cat8) Ethernet -> "upstream" FMC -> 7 M (23 ft) optical fiber -> "downstream" FMC -> Ethernet cable ("audiophile grade" under evaluation)-> Sonore microRendu -> Shunyata Alpha USB -> Schiit Gungnir Multibit DAC > CJ CT-5 preamp.

The Mac Mini, which is in another part of the house, as far away from the audio rack as possible, is powered with a Shunyata Venom 14 with a C7 plug. I'll probably move my Hydra 4 in there to power it.

The Sonore microRendu is powered by an UpTone Audio UltraCap LPS-1 PS with some ridiculous amount of capacitance reserve (60 Farads). The Meanwell AC/DC transformer for the LPS-1 is powered with a Shunyata Venom 14 plugged into my Shunyata Triton distributor. The upstream FMC is powered by a low-noise Jameco 9V 500mA 4.5W regulated linear power supply (P/N GPU410900500WDOO). This power supply is plugged into a $39 Audioquest IEC>3US power-strippy thang that is connected to the wall receptacle with a Shunyata Diamondback power cord. The downstream FMC, which is near the audio rack, is powered by a 9V iFi iPower linear power supply plugged into the Shunyata Triton.

The two FMCs are TP-Link MC200CM SC/SC 850nM Multi-mode fiber media converters. The fiber is Tripp-Lite, 7 meters, 62.5/125 fiber patch cable SC/SC, P/N N306-07M.

My "reference" Ethernet cable from the downstream FMC to the Sonore microRendu is an Audioquest Cinnamon, 0.75M

Hope this helps...
 
Can do, Bart.

Mac Mini-> (originally generic, now Supra Cat8)1M Ethernet cable > Pace Router > (originally generic, now Supra Cat8) Ethernet -> "upstream" FMC -> 7 M (23 ft) optical fiber cable (zip cord style) -> "downstream" FMC -> Ethernet cable ("audiophile grade" under evaluation)-> Sonore microRendu -> Shunyata Alpha USB -> Schiit Gungnir Multibit DAC > CJ CT-5 preamp.

The Mac Mini, which is in another part of the house, as far away from the audio rack as possible, is powered with a Shunyata Venom 14 with a C7 plug. I'll probably move my Hydra 4 in there to power it.

The Sonore microRendu is powered by an UpTone Audio UltraCap LPS-1 PS with some ridiculous amount of capacitance reserve (60 Farads). The Meanwell AC/DC transformer for the LPS-1 is powered with a Shunyata Venom 14 plugged into my Shunyata Triton distributor. The upstream FMC is powered by a low-noise Jameco 9V 500mA 4.5W regulated linear power supply (P/N GPU410900500WDOO). This power supply is plugged into a $39 Audioquest IEC>3US power-strippy thang that is connected to the wall receptacle with a Shunyata Diamondback power cord. The downstream FMC, which is near the audio rack, is powered by a 9V iFi iPower linear power supply plugged into the Shunyata Triton.

The two FMCs are TP-Link MC200CM SC/SC 850nM Multi-mode fiber media converters. The fiber is Tripp-Lite, 7 meters, 62.5/125 fiber patch cable SC/SC, P/N N306-07M.

My "reference" Ethernet cable from the downstream FMC to the Sonore microRendu is an Audioquest Cinnamon, 0.75M

Hope this helps...


Fantastic Stephen!
Thank you very much.

I'm still thinking about the best step to proceed.
Wireless, via a device like the Auralic Aries 2, or wired.
The wireless option seems a lot less work, but wired might sound better after all...
 
Fantastic Stephen!
Thank you very much.

I'm still thinking about the best step to proceed.
Wireless, via a device like the Auralic Aries 2, or wired.
The wireless option seems a lot less work, but wired might sound better after all...

Hi Bart,
If you have a very good Wifi bandwidth, it can work very well to use wireless.

My problem is that my small townhome is a veritable "WiFi black hole". I can look down the hallway from the living room where the stereo is and literally see the Wifi Router in the bedroom and yet I can't get decent Wifi bandwidth from there into the living room even with a TP-link Wifi Extender. Once I added a Ring video doorball to my network, I was having constantly having streaming dropouts, especially every time someone walked past the front door and set off a motion alert.

So a wired configuration it is.
 
Fantastic Stephen!
Thank you very much.

I'm still thinking about the best step to proceed.
Wireless, via a device like the Auralic Aries 2, or wired.
The wireless option seems a lot less work, but wired might sound better after all...

Hello

Puma may be right on wireless, just don’t know, but agree on his wired approach.

My opinion and only that is to keep it wired, you have all sorts of options right now to maximize your sound if that’s something of interest, and your an Audiophile so I’m sure I know the answer, anyway, we’re here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
I

I quoted what you said exactly so we can dispense with the word “bit.” I could also infer from what you said that your system tends to be a bit flabby and loose in the bass and the Vodka cable just made it worse. It’s like being a bit pregnant.

Please - no need for this diatribe - bit like being a bit of an ass.
 
All the cable companies have their spin on the tech they use. The proof is in the performance. A dealer/friend brought over a set of the Iconoclast speaker cables for me to listen to, this was back when I had a Pass amp and Revel speakers, Iconoclast are extremely expensive and I wouldn't have used them if they were free. They just didn't sound right in my system for some reason. I'm not meaning for this to sound harsh but the cables really put me off.

I only share this as you hold this Galen Gareis up as some cable God.

To my knowledge Paul Speltz was the original, or at least one of if not the original, cable designers to go against having a dielectric around his cables. Now there are some larger name brands who have taken steps to separate the wire from the dielectric. They had to come up with other ways to do it, maybe out of fear of legal issues or possibly realizing Speltz was onto something but still felt shielding was important.

Just making the point, there is more than one way to skin a cat and if it works, it works. If any one designer was the only one technically correct we wouldn't have about a million cable brands to mill through.

Knowing full well Chord's reputation for making excellent-sounding products, I'm sure they sound great. And thanks for sending the link to the video. I watched the interview with Nigel with interest. In particular, his comment about changing "the spacing between the conductor and the shield" is fully consisent with point that Galen Gareis was making in his design brief for his speaker cables, specifically:

"Magnetic fields decay rapidly with distance; ratio of 1/x^3. The best defense is to MOVE the low frequency electromagnetic cables away from one another. The foil and even braid shields are higher frequency shields that are ineffective at much below 1 MHz. Magnetic fields lines need low permeability shield material (something a magnet will stick to) to route flux lines away from sensitive devices. A faraday cage is an example you can put something into to do this. Low permeability metallic shields are a pain to use (stiff and heavy). DISTANCE is the best remedy."

This is exactly what Nigel said that Chord did with the "Signature Reference".

They increased the spacing between the conductor and the shield because it makes the Chord cable perform and sound better for exactly the reasons that Garies cites above.

Nigel also commented that the new speaker cables are significantly less stiff than the older model, but added, "...relatively speaking.." This is also consistent the Galen's comment that low permeability shields are a pain to use, stiff and heavy.

I'm sure the Chord Signature Reference sound great; Chord is a solid engineering-based audio company with excellent credentials. But, respectfully, I'm not convinced that because Chord does it that it is a cable design paradigm or "central dogma." Digital coax, sure. Speaker cables, no. Personally, I'm an advocate for "fit for purpose" engineering. I don't see an advantage for engineering something just because you can. This is what Howard Hughes got caught up with with the Spruce Goose. And, particularly if it adds unnecessary complexity to a design embodiment, or, most importantly, if it adds undesired effects that then have to be compensated for.

I'll give you example. For years now, Audioquest has been installing Dielectric Bias System (DBS) units to their cables. They actually work, and reduce the time for burn-in. But, as they are battery powered and output 72 volts, it turns out that the DBS units also output RF. So, now, AQ had to modify the DBS units to a new engineering specification to include an "RF trap" to protect the cable from the RF that the DBS field elements themselves put out. :S

*-unrelated side note: Why do almost all audiophile product companies use terms like "Reference, Statement, Signature, Platinum, or Reference Statement or Signature Statement or Reference Signature, etc.? I find it amusing, but I digress.
 
FWIW, the character you describe in the WW is in line with similar comments on reviews of their digital cables I've read. The Vodka sounds a lot like what I heard in the AQ Diamond a friend recently tried in my system.

Okay, here are my impressions of WW Starlight Cat8:

WW Starlight Cat8 cable back in the system after the AQ Cinnamon. Its a nice-sounding cable, on the whole, its most notable attribute is that its very quiet, and compared to AQ Cinnamon is that the soundstage on the Wireworld Starlight Cat8 is quite a bit wider than Cinnamon; it extends well past the sides of the speakers; Cinnamon's soundstage does not extend past the sides of the speakers. And, there is more space around each instrument and voice in the stereo image. The overall soundstage is on the two-dimensional side in that its not particularly deep front-to-back. The musical presentation is very neutral, but on the lean, cool side of neutral than the warmish-side of neutral. Vocals and instrumentals are clean and well-defined, but what I would classify as somewhat spare and thin in presentation and body. String bass definition and articulation is excellent, and a just a touch dry and lean. Some sibilants can be somewhat hot and/or bright, depending on the recording.
 
FWIW, the character you describe in the WW is in line with similar comments on reviews of their digital cables I've read. The Vodka sounds a lot like what I heard in the AQ Diamond a friend recently tried in my system.

Good to know, thanks!
 
All the cable companies have their spin on the tech they use. The proof is in the performance. A dealer/friend brought over a set of the Iconoclast speaker cables for me to listen to, this was back when I had a Pass amp and Revel speakers, Iconoclast are extremely expensive and I wouldn't have used them if they were free. They just didn't sound right in my system for some reason. I'm not meaning for this to sound harsh but the cables really put me off.

I only share this as you hold this Galen Gareis up as some cable God.

My first-ever pairs of speaker cables were Paul Spelz' Anti-Cables. They sounded good with the caveats that 1) they took 500 hours to burn in 2) they are incredibly stiff and heavy and PITA to live with and 3) the banana plugs were always breaking off them. I don't use them anymore because they are simply impractical to live with (for me, YMMV).

No, I do not hold him up as a "cable god" (and, please, don't put words in my mouth). I was referencing him because he is one of the very few cable design engineers that has actually published a white paper on the engineering challenges, requirements, physics and underlying equations that are important in (loudspeaker) cable design.

I used to teach TRIZ (Teoriya Resheniya Izobretatelskikh Zadatch) as a DFSS MBB when I was teaching my Design for Six Sigma courses for technical and engineering product development to scientists and engineers, and one of the key foundations of TRIZ is that there is almost always more than one (often, several) ways to accomplish a necessary or required functional response. This is the basis for the 40 TRIZ inventive principles.

I'm referencing TRIZ here to reinforce that I fully understand there is more than one (usually several) ways to design products, including cables. That being said, I appreciate being able to read a sound engineering white paper, complete with equations, to help reinforce my understanding of this discipline.
 
“Diatribe” is a ‘bit’ (word of the moment it seems) harsh Rob.

I’ve read this as Mark providing some guidance by urging the OP to review and reflect upon possible conflicts in the descriptions and synopsis of what he is hearing.

That is the funniest response I have read in a while - you have missed your true calling - comedy.
 
I also struggle to join the dots between an observation that the AQ Vodka Ethernet cable contributed to a bass that was not tightly defined and articulated and was looser and flabbier than a Ethernet cable from a competing brand – yet nonetheless won overall preference for being “more natural”.

Why is that a surprise - could that be due to you not having access to said cables - said hardware - you waiting for one of your "brand ambassadors" to send cables - or are you fishing for new brands to be an ambassador for. A leopard cannot change its spots.
 
“Diatribe” is a ‘bit’ (word of the moment it seems) harsh Rob.


I’ve read this as Mark providing some guidance by urging the OP to review and reflect upon possible conflicts in the descriptions and synopsis of what he is hearing.

That was my intent.
 
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