Any Shindo 604 AlNiCo owners here?

[Mike]

whoa...i didn't realize they were so dear. i've got to make it over to Matt's place when i'm in the area to hear what the fuss is about. I haven't had the pleasure of hearing a full-on 'tone audio' system.

Me too. I'm very curious. Shindo has pleasantly surprised me so far. So, let's see.


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[Petro85]

"Nuff said"?! NOW you're talking like a true horny! That's what I'm talking bout. Get my Klipsch blood boiling and I'm going back to my Cornwalls!! Ha. Miss those Cornwalls sometimes... A simpler time. A different audio America.

i love the klipsch thing. had cornwalls too for a bit. the 3's. i would have loved to upgrade them and get a little more refinement out of the mid and tweeter. but wow could they bring the house down with drums and bass. as good of a speaker for rock and roll as most ive heard. ive often though about the diy cornscalas. what a bargain.
im a woodworker and i can build a box, and a nice one at that. but i know nothing of crossovers and the electronics part.
i like to see the insides of any speaker to learn the different ways to build them.

 

[NOLG4EVR]

I've wanted to love the O/96's ever since I first heard them....and when I hear them with something like Shelby Lynn Just A Little a Loving, I think "oh man, these sound sweet". Then I put on something complex and blah...

As for Shindo and Devore, John said he uses lots of different amps at home - including SS amps which is what he likes to demo with. I can see the SS amps giving some control and needed dynamic punch to the O/96's.


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Very interesting concept.

Research and design a high efficiency, flat impedance curve box speaker to be displayed and shown with SS amps to really take control and showcase the dynamic punch of the design.

A niche market audience for sure.

 

[kev313]

John would be surprised to hear that. He voiced the 0/96's with Shindo.

We all have our opinions I guess.


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I agree. Interesting opinion. Many people have heard the o96 Shindo combo (disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the speakers) and this is the first I've heard that the combo - or as mike put it, the speakers and the gear both individually and together - struggles with complex music. Both brands are fairly well known for their handling of dynamics and the textural complexity of music. This has been well documented by professional reviewers especially as it comes to Devores which have been reviewed quite a bit.

Trying to bring accuracy to a subjective process is so difficult. Comparing this type of gear to systems with solid state amps will obviously result in vastly different experiences from which to draw your opinion. Struggles. Preferences. Accuracy. Specs. Recommendations. Bias. Backstory. Intrigue. Anger. Ego.

Tomato. Tomahto.

 

[Mike]

I believe this is John's listening room. Lots of different amps I see on the rack. Probably some pretty cool vintage ones too.

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[kev313]

True. Lots of info on the Monkeyhaus out there. This pic of John's rack comes from Stereophile.

 

[mep]

I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Don't "suppose" because it always is. Anyone who thinks the Shindo 604 speakers are beautiful might be married to a Russian wrestler and mistake her for a beauty queen. As the old saying goes, appearances can be deceiving and maybe there is much more beauty hidden under the surface than what we (meaning those that don't find these speakers to be outwardly physically attractive and rather look like something that came from a high school wood shop class from the 1960s ) can see.

To me, and to most Shindoists, music reproduction and system building is not an art, it is art.

Now we are starting to sound like a religion. "What faith do you belong to?" "Oh, I'm a Shindoist."

One of my favorite pieces on this topic - by Herb R. And actually currently posted at Enjoy the Music - touches on this approach:

"To be successful at building an amp or speakers, I maintain you must PICTURE, in your mind, how you will look and how you will feel playing discs. I mean how it will feel to put the disc on/in the player. I mean how you think you will look in the room lighting, standing in front of the player and between the speakers. I mean try to imagine how you will feel putting on the disc and sitting in the chair, dreaming and carrying on, in the new world you have created. This is your time machine, your sanctuary. This is your religion. You are the wizard, the movie director, the conductor, the mad scientist! When you create your own music system, you create you own new music culture. I really like the feel of playing 78s. It takes me somewhere."

Man, this sounds just like something Harvey Rosenberg would have said! Where are my grunty diapers?

The bottom line here is that the Shindo speakers don't have to please anyone but their owners. Whether they cost $300 or $30,000, as long as the person who shelled out the money is happy with them and feels they received good value for their money, everyone else can go pound sand. What I was interested in was how they were different than the original 604s installed in Altec 604 studio monitor boxes and did they sound better. I'm not sure if anyone has heard both versions.

 

[kev313]

Don't "suppose" because it always is. Anyone who thinks the Shindo 604 speakers are beautiful might be married to a Russian wrestler and mistake her for a beauty queen. As the old saying goes, appearances can be deceiving and maybe there is much more beauty hidden under the surface than what we (meaning those that don't find these speakers to be outwardly physically attractive and rather look like something that came from a high school wood shop class from the 1960s ) can see.



Now we are starting to sound like a religion. "What faith do you belong to?" "Oh, I'm a Shindoist."



Man, this sounds just like something Harvey Rosenberg would have said! Where are my grunty diapers?

The bottom line here is that the Shindo speakers don't have to please anyone but their owners. Whether they cost $300 or $30,000, as long as the person who shelled out the money is happy with them and feels they received good value for their money, everyone else can go pound sand. What I was interested in was how they were different than the original 604s installed in Altec 604 studio monitor boxes and did they sound better. I'm not sure if anyone has heard both versions.

Actually, my bottom line is that Shindo owners don't have to please anyone else, but why quibble about details. To your last point, I have obviously heard my speakers (604 field coil), I have owned original 604 in various enclosures, but I have never listened to the Shindo 604 Alnico, so I cannot comment on the comparison.

As Matt can attest, I was reluctant to go with the 604 based on my prior 604 diy experience and was leaning heavily towards the A23 Cinema Hommage. In the end, I went all in in the 604 and got a speaker that exceeded my expectations. So as to that comparison, I can represent that in my experience the field coil modification, supply, crossover etc make the speaker quite a bit different than a standard 604. Again, in your comparison, what 604 are you discussing? There are many many variations from original Altecs through current GPA models. All are quite different. What type of crossover? Original? DIY design? Which parts? These questions matter.

As to the remainder of your points, is it a faith? Not quite, but it is a different way of thinking. I don't roll shiny boxes. I don't seek out more precision, accuracy, soundstage depth, height, width, bass. I don't chase the current flavor - D'Agostino, Job. I don't worry about the latest revision or model from Arc or Wilson. Nothing. I've found a house brand that suits me. I enjoy the Shindo sonics. Does that mean I will stay static? Probably not. I can move around within Shindo and enjoy the different flavors without worrying about chasing some sonic goal as I'm certain that the basic brand strengths and presentation will remain the same. I enjoy every Shindo piece that I have as an artistic expression by Shindo in an of itself and, in some respects, independent from the sound it produces. I enjoy the process of building a system from these components.

Is that different that fretting about whether my old ARC amp can be upgraded to v2 to accept new tubes for greater !BASS SLAM!?

Yes it is. This is not a controversial approach in many circles, but it has a history of very vocal opposition in American audio forums.

Part of this, I suspect, was accurately pointed out by a poster above: most people who can afford this hobby don't like to be told that they are wrong and should "submit" to a system approach. Either that or they claim to enjoy the process of flipping gear and swinging from extreme to extreme on the sonic spectrum, never finding a home. Could be. I enjoyed that for a time. Not so much anymore.

One final point...the bit about the speakers looking like something from a high school wood shop class in the 1960s. That's a pretty insulting thing to say on what everyone loves to represent as the forum that was specially designed to be friendlier than the self proclaimed friendliest audio forum. The fact of the matter is, yes, Shindo speakers do look like wooden boxes and, yes, many have spent over 60,000 to buy them. Obviously I could've had my pick of Wilson or Magico shiny modern speakers in this price range. I happen to find them quite beautiful, but my taste runs, I suppose to the mid century modern over the...well...whatever you would call Wilson. In any event, it bears pointing out that this design works well in many living environments, not unlike the older speaker designs that have inspired Shindo. In contrast, a room full of shiny Burmester components in a rack between many 60k modern speakers looks quite garish by comparison. To my eyes anyway.

Hey, I suppose the Shindo approach inspires these types of witty criticism. That certainly was true in the last forum and it looks like nothing will change here. I would suggest that that ego of the posters is involved, but if I hold up the mirror I am no different. I think my approach is better than yours. Well, better than non-Shindoists, anyway.

 

[briguy]

As with pretty much all wood enclosures, they look WAY better in person. I'll admit, when I first saw these particular Shindo 604's I thought they looked a bit plain. But once I got them in natural light, I understood their understate beauty. And in a dimly lit room with some flickering candlelight (the way I most enjoy listening to music), the beauty is mesmerizing.

 

[Petro85]

kev i agree with some of your points and can somewhat see where you are coming from. especially the point of ,"this is what you like and thats all that matters". which is 100% true. anything you want to pay your hard earned cash for is up to you. no matter what you think this is a friendly forum. but also an honest forum. right upto the top boss on the forum who will buy $75k speakers, then tell us basically they suck. and sell them. its not a personal attack on you or your choices, its just that some dont agree with them. its like that for every piece of gear on this forum. and this place is not driven by advertising dollars or what the admin wants to sell. this place is about honest assessment of stereo gear .
now if you think shindo is in this business to make the world happy they are not, they are in this for the same reason everyone else is, to vent people with good size bank accounts of their money. period. its nothing against shindo or any other company, but they are just better at it than most because they have the "system approach" which keeps you coming back for more. bottom line its not what rack or cables is best with shindo gear, its what the importer imports. or distributor distributes. and it goes right back to the almighty dollar above all else.
with that said, i know people who went the shindo "system" route an love it, and i know people who did and couldnt sell it off fast enough. its a matter of taste and no one is right or wrong, but we do like to discuss it. and if some criticisms are harsh than so be it, gotta have thick skin to be on the internet.
every piece of gear i have has been criticized at one point or another . im ok with it, im not rich and i dont spend as much as most, and ive made alot of stupid purchases in the past . and im hating my speakers right now. but at the end of the day i can sit down and still enjoy a great album and thats all that really matters.
good luck to you

 

[kev313]

kev i agree with some of your points and can somewhat see where you are coming from. especially the point of ,"this is what you like and thats all that matters". which is 100% true. anything you want to pay your hard earned cash for is up to you. no matter what you think this is a friendly forum. but also an honest forum. right upto the top boss on the forum who will buy $75k speakers, then tell us basically they suck. and sell them. its not a personal attack on you or your choices, its just that some dont agree with them. its like that for every piece of gear on this forum. and this place is not driven by advertising dollars or what the admin wants to sell. this place is about honest assessment of stereo gear .
now if you think shindo is in this business to make the world happy they are not, they are in this for the same reason everyone else is, to vent people with good size bank accounts of their money. period. its nothing against shindo or any other company, but they are just better at it than most because they have the "system approach" which keeps you coming back for more. bottom line its not what rack or cables is best with shindo gear, its what the importer imports. or distributor distributes. and it goes right back to the almighty dollar above all else.
with that said, i know people who went the shindo "system" route an love it, and i know people who did and couldnt sell it off fast enough. its a matter of taste and no one is right or wrong, but we do like to discuss it. and if some criticisms are harsh than so be it, gotta have thick skin to be on the internet.
every piece of gear i have has been criticized at one point or another . im ok with it, im not rich and i dont spend as much as most, and ive made alot of stupid purchases in the past . and im hating my speakers right now. but at the end of the day i can sit down and still enjoy a great album and thats all that really matters.
good luck to you

While I find it hard to disagree with the sentiment of your post, I'd have to say it's a pretty sad commentary as applied to the instant matter. Trust me, I'm not a sensitive guy...I argue with people as a career choice. That said, I find some of the specific criticisms as to the appearance a bit low brow and as to the comments as to performance totally uniformed. Which is fine. That's what questions are for. However, when these questions are asked from the point of view that the working assumption is that Shindo is a poor value proposition, especially where the one asking the question is not providing enough information for an informed comparison with "original" Altecs.

Which is another way of me saying, it's hard for me to know whether those asking the questions are just ragging on the product or whether they have a working knowledge of Altec which provides a foundation for their question.

Which brings me to my main point(s). It's all in how you ask. I don't think anyone here is really that unsophisticated. So when you ask a question with an obvious tone, with an obvious bias, I assume it was not accidental. Criticism is one thing. Informed criticism is even better. Some of the questions and points raised here, don't quite fit with the "friendly forum" flag.

Just my opinion. And criticism.

 

[MDP]

Keep it civil boys !

 

[mep]

I for one think I'm keeping it quite civil. I have never stated that I don't think the Shindo 604 speakers can sound good as I obviously have no idea. I thought the question I asked with regards to how does the Shindo application of the 604 differ from how Altec implemented the 604 in their cabinet to be quite valid and i think Mike agreed. If Shindo has converted the 604 to a field coil speaker, that is a huge difference.

I didn't think this forum was all about just patting each other on the back and congratulating each other on every purchase we make and then saying "GLWS" as it moves on down the road a few weeks or months later. If someone is paying $30k+ for a pair of 604 speakers mounted in a plain looking box, I think it's only normal to wonder what is going on with how Shindo has implemented changes from the original design which can be had for under $4k including Altec enclosures.

 

[kev313]

To be clear, the speakers that are the subject of the post are not FC conversions. My Shindo speakers are 604 FC conversions.

Again, I don't disagree that the question is valid. I do take issue with the way some have presented the issue. Constructive discussion is more likely to be had where all parties remain respectful. Starting the discussion by referring the speakers as diy nightmares, or however it was worded, sets a nasty tone.

 

[mep]

To be clear, the speakers that are the subject of the post are not FC conversions. My Shindo speakers are 604 FC conversions.

Again, I don't disagree that the question is valid. I do take issue with the way some have presented the issue. Constructive discussion is more likely to be had where all parties remain respectful. Starting the discussion by referring the speakers as diy nightmares, or however it was worded, sets a nasty tone.

That wasn't me.

 

[briguy]

I for one think I'm keeping it quite civil. I have never stated that I don't think the Shindo 604 speakers can sound good as I obviously have no idea. I thought the question I asked with regards to how does the Shindo application of the 604 differ from how Altec implemented the 604 in their cabinet to be quite valid and i think Mike agreed. If Shindo has converted the 604 to a field coil speaker, that is a huge difference.

I didn't think this forum was all about just patting each other on the back and congratulating each other on every purchase we make and then saying "GLWS" as it moves on down the road a few weeks or months later. If someone is paying $30k+ for a pair of 604 speakers mounted in a plain looking box, I think it's only normal to wonder what is going on with how Shindo has implemented changes from the original design which can be had for under $4k including Altec enclosures.

As the original poster, I don't mind any of this. I'm fluent in Internet Snark and understand how to read between the nuanced lines.

These particular speakers do look "plain" at first. That was also my initial thought. But natural wood is beautiful to me and the finish on these really shines in person. Photos just don't do them justice.

Are they as nice as the standard DeVore finish or the Rosewood finish of the Latour's? No. But they are gonna look HOT in the room I'm putting them in.

 

[KeithR]

Paul- i realize you're a tube guy, but have you considered FirstWatt amplification? Nelson uses Tannoy in their design.

 

[briguy]

So, did anyone ever step forward who owns, has owned or knows someone who owns Shindo's standard 604's (the owns I'm planning to get)?

I'd love to talk to someone who has lived with these speakers and run them through the paces.

 

[kev313]

My advice would be to ask Matt. He could probably hook you up with owners who could relay their experiences. Speaking from only my experiences, I don't know any other owners of the 604, save for myself and the person pictured on Matt's site and ours are both field coil.

If you go to audio asylum you can find a member who had Shindo build custom cabinets for his GPA 604, which are alnico obviously. It is my understanding that he later had Shindo convert the speakers to a full Shindo setup. Perhaps you can message him through AA.

 

[briguy]

Will do. Curious... are you using any wood under your speakers?

Matt recommended I put the speakers on wood (baltic birch plywood) to improve the bass since my floor is made of terracotta tiles. Wondering if you've experimented with any other woods and if you found that others were better in certain ways.