Any Shindo 604 AlNiCo owners here?

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Loop4fun said:
Kev, That's exactly why I went with the WE300B. But, Stephen moved from the GM70s to the Pass 30.8 and Jack Roberts also moved from his Wavac 300B with WE tubes to the Pass 30.8. Apparently the 30.8 is really special, but I've never heard it.

I also was worried if I waited, Shindo might either quit it's production or drastically raise the price based on what's happened with the scarcity of tubes. Not to mention price. I purchased a spare set of NOS 300B tubes from the early 60's that REALLY sound good, but I want to at least use the tubes that came with it until my warranty runs out. (Just in case) Those two tubes alone were more expensive than the Pass 30.8.

So I agree wholeheartedly with your comment which is why I went with them, but it was a choice Stephen made with an all Shindo system similar to mine. And I respect his opinion. I don't plan to ever change. These were my final destination amps. And, they are amazing.
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I haven't heard the Pass, so I'm obviously not qualified to comment on the sound. I have, however, heard that several people in the Shindo group have commented favorably. Frankly, I'm suspicious. No one would listen to this if Roberts hadn't reviewed it. I have no idea why anyone who is happy with an established system would make a change in response to his reviews. His system transition over the years makes no sense to me at all. He is on the road to hifi hell as Peter Q would say. Bouncing from sound to sound, approach to approach, with no direction. No sense of goals or priorities. For the love of god he uses the headings "treble, midrange and bass" for his reviews! What is he listening for? HOW is he listening. His room! His speakers!! Problems abound.

At the end of the day, I am simply not a good audiophile. I recognize this. I enjoy building systems (not only an all Shindo system) as much as the next guy, but my approach is different. I suspect that one could replace Pass in this situation with probably anything. One hears a change in the zip, tizz and boom. One sees it is endorsed by jack. An improvement is assumed.

Again, maybe the Pass is actually better than a Shindo amp in an all Shindo system. I'm obviously suspicious. Of at least the claim, but also the listening habits and priorities of one making the claim.

I realize that my thoughts here aren't fully flushed out. Hopefully I can do that in the future. Note that this has nothing to do with support of an all Shindo only approach. No. This is something more fundamental as an approach to the hobby and listening.


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You are better at putting things into an intended context than I, and I agree with you. I wanted the all Shindo synergy and I am not interested in trying to modify this and that for incremental changes that I really couldn't probably tell whether better or not. Stephen. on the other hand, has been very Shindo consistent for a long time. It surprised me when he moved to the Pass. I don't enjoy and don't have the patience to A/B equipment.

I have faith in what I've heard at Matt's, and don't want to get off that track. Plus he has always taken good care of me. The Giscours, WE 300b, with the PL are my final system for this lifetime. Sources may change slightly. But, for now, I'm happy with them, too.

If I make any changes, it will be to the room layout. Not equipment.

I'm pretty much in line with your perspective.
 
I'm looking forward to hearing Stephen's system soon. He still has field coil PLs, the 301, and the Giscours (and a Mr. T). We scheduled a listening session at his house for this Friday, but it's postponed because he decided to change his setup.

He came to my house for a listen last Friday. I'd moved the equipment to my living room which is about 25'x40'. I never got things dialed in and later realized that I needed to replace the Haut Brion's 6AW8A tubes - one was microphonic and ringing with no music playing. However, Stephen actually heard how the ringing affected the music. He described it as a bloom. He didn't know about the tube problem. I really couldn't discern it in the music. Good ears.

After he left, I replaced the tubes and nixed the ring/bloom. This cleaned up the sound noticeably. Shindo gear sounds so nice that it can be easy to overlook subtle but significant artifacts when they happen.

Still, the sound in the big room was rich and atmospheric since the speakers had room to breathe. Stephen was intrigued and decided to try the same, so he postponed the listening session until he gets things set. Knowing him, I'm sure that the X 30.8 is a wonderful amp.

Now my system is back in the listening room, the 604's eight feet apart (drivers on center) and toed in 15 degrees or so. It's more of a near field thing, and the 604's are good at this. Things are more focused than ever and the HB gives them wonderful impact in the midrange and low frequencies. Low level listening is really a pleasure too. Stephen loaned my his Mr. T. I haven't AB'd things much (against my wiremold strip), but it seems to light the sound up a bit and also give a bit more impact while making things sound a more effortless.
 


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Had a great time at Craig's listening to his 604's. Although there was a tube issue Craig addressed in his last post on this thread, I was very taken with the particular magic of these speakers. They effortlessly filled a large room with the typically-hard-to-nail-down but immersive Shindo sound. They were coherent and involving in a way those who own Shindo speakers/gear know so well. It was a great pleasure.

A word to Bill about my letting a non-Shindo amp into my all Shindo system: I was leaning towards going for the 300B Ltd Shindo amplifier for some time and tried the Pass XA30.8 as a lark, honestly never thinking I would keep it (I got a great deal and knew I could pass it on (ok pun intended). But the reason I even tried it is: I knew I could get more out of my Petite Latours in the bass department. I knew because once when my GM 70's were waiting for a tube replacement I inserted a 40W solid state amp called a Studio IV that I had kicking around. It took a hold of the bass in a completely new and gripping way. I've heard the 300B Ltd. does this as well. Anyway, that's what led me to try the Pass in the first place, thinking I could get that bass presence and control along with some of the GM 70's SE magic (according to Jack R.). Does the Pass do everything the GM 70's did and more? No, I have given up a degree of ambient air around acoustic instruments. But my hunch is your 300B Ltd. has all the ambient air and bass presence/control that one could ask for. If I take another step on my audio journey, it will be in that direction I'm sure. Right now I'm still enthralled with my heretic Shindo/Pass synergy.
 
The "little" Pass amps are great. So glad you are happy. I miss my XA60.5's and still want to try the 60.8's at some point.

So much gear, so little time (or money actually :)).
 
jazzmatazz said:
Had a great time at Craig's listening to his 604's. Although there was a tube issue Craig addressed in his last post on this thread, I was very taken with the particular magic of these speakers. They effortlessly filled a large room with the typically-hard-to-nail-down but immersive Shindo sound. They were coherent and involving in a way those who own Shindo speakers/gear know so well. It was a great pleasure.

A word to Bill about my letting a non-Shindo amp into my all Shindo system: I was leaning towards going for the 300B Ltd Shindo amplifier for some time and tried the Pass XA30.8 as a lark, honestly never thinking I would keep it (I got a great deal and knew I could pass it on (ok pun intended). But the reason I even tried it is: I knew I could get more out of my Petite Latours in the bass department. I knew because once when my GM 70's were waiting for a tube replacement I inserted a 40W solid state amp called a Studio IV that I had kicking around. It took a hold of the bass in a completely new and gripping way. I've heard the 300B Ltd. does this as well. Anyway, that's what led me to try the Pass in the first place, thinking I could get that bass presence and control along with some of the GM 70's SE magic (according to Jack R.). Does the Pass do everything the GM 70's did and more? No, I have given up a degree of ambient air around acoustic instruments. But my hunch is your 300B Ltd. has all the ambient air and bass presence/control that one could ask for. If I take another step on my audio journey, it will be in that direction I'm sure. Right now I'm still enthralled with my heretic Shindo/Pass synergy.
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Altec drivers are not different from most drivers : they will respond very differently in the bass with a good SS amp compared to tubes. That is the obvious advantage of SS amps over tubes, and it applies also to HE drivers : the bass is tighter, more controlled and with better dynamics with SS.
That is why I keep the Nagra MSA with my Altec speakers.
 
Theres not only one class of Altec drivers. Altec has build drivers that were different in many ways due to the fact that they have a long production history.
To achieve a high quality in bass with tubes may be more complex and a little more effort than with SS, but the qualities that are achievable are much more worth than that achievable with SS. Its not comparable in any ways.
 
Stephen's system is really impressive. The Giscours and X30.8 pair very well in a hybrid way that you might expect - smooth, controlled, detailed. He also has Townshend super tweeters sitting on his Petite Latour field coils, and this contributed to an uncanny sense of space and atmosphere on certain recordings. I'll not soon forget the startling texture and tone of the vintage Starker chello record he spun on his Shindo 301 TT. Never heard anything like it.

My own 604's are now finally broken in and showing their own considerable abilities. After two years of the Haut Brion being in repair or not having the right speakers, and recently having burned in a new set of tubes, I'm finally able to hear what it's capable of. It's a wonderful match for the 604's, which convey amazing detail and a huge sound field, but also incredible tone and liquidity. The Milt Jackson's vibraphone on his recording of "These Foolish Things" is so realistic and lit from within - it really sounds like he's in the room.
 
kev313 said:
No idea but he is very well known in the Western Electric community. I assume his work is quite good.
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Have you or anyone else here personally heard the WE horns he's using in a good system or (even better) in a Shindo system?

Curious to hear some unbiased feedback on the strengths/weaknesses of this approach versus the Latours.

Anyone know any WEstern Electric aficionados in the San Francisco Bay Area?
 
Ask at the lenco forum. Lots of WE knowledge over there from guys who are interested in audio and audio history and not...errrr....shopping. [emoji23]


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The shindo speaker is a great solution with good high efficency sound, smooth and open, natural etc...its the solution I had arrived to before going for the large western electric horns. The move from Atlec/JBL is not a simple one as ones foundations need to be reconsidered. When dealing with >110db horns that cover 50>85hz to 5000hz>5500hz in one go it challenges yet is rewarding. Have made horns for many around the world and they will all confirm this. A few are in California state. Not many of these systems on the planet...

All fun...
 
BTW, I'm now using super tweeters on my 604's with very agreeable results.

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Craig- love the finish on your 604's. I'm sure it sounds wonderful. Nice that you can control the level of that super tweeter.
 
fjn04 said:
Craig- love the finish on your 604's. I'm sure it sounds wonderful. Nice that you can control the level of that super tweeter.
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Thanks. You noticed the attenuators which coupled with various value capacitors allow experimentation and better integration with the 604's. A while back, you told me that the 604's were probably nowhere near fully broken in. In addition, it was likely that the new tubes in the Haut Brion needed further burn-in. Whatever the reason, the combo wasn't yet producing the high frequency I was told to expect, and these Fostex units got things where I like them. They may be a short term solution, but they sure sound nice as is.
 
Sorry Don, it was Bill (loop4fun) that told me that the 604's weren't broken in yet. I momentarily got confused because you both have 4's in your user names. I must be easily addled!
 
I'm getting stands built for my Altec Valencia 846A's. Can Shindo speaker owners share the approximate height the horn is off the ground. I am liking my Altec's about 8" off the ground now. Because my grills are on there, I haven't checked to see if my horns are at ear level. System: WT GTA, TSD-15 SFL, A23 Homage T2, V/R, Dy'Quem's, Lignolab rack. Cheers -Don
 
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