Analog System Questions

[Dizzie]

Well, I'm about 2 hours away from Sacramento, carry Ortofon, and have the equipment and software to perform a thorough calibration. Wally Engineering is even closer, at about 1.5 hours away, and can do precise cartridge measurement and calibration. Getting things calibrated properly can mean the difference between a focused presentation versus one where the music is smeared and has greater distortion.

I'm still not convinced that the 2M Bronze is the problem, but the 2M Black and 2M Black LVB are both designed to have greater detail retrieval, clarity, and a more neutral presentation. It could be the 2M Bronze plus the Zesto tubes are in combination too much in the wrong direction while a 2M Black would be closer on the spectrum to your goal even though it is only a little more expensive.

If you want a monumental improvement, then you could go with the moving coil Cadenza Bronze or Black, but I think that approaches your system being somewhat unbalanced in terms of the financial investment in components. I also share your worry that you might purchase a more expensive cartridge and still not achieve the sound you're looking for. Plus like mulveling mentioned, the Zesto's SUT will also have an impact on the sound of a moving coil cartridge.

The main reason I asked what your other components are is because you said you're happy with the way things sound with digital playback. Knowing what your other components are could help me understand what that sound is.

Thank you for your offer. Simultaneously my dealer offered to come over to check the setup and bring a different cartridge. But I have made my decision. I like the offer I received for buying my vinyl. I am going to exit vinyl and return to enjoying music.

I feel going deeper down the vinyl rabbit hole will only bring disappointment. As you mention, spending more money is no guarantee. At the same time I feel my digital system is almost endgame. The next bump up the line from what I have would cost 2-2.5X.

Aurender N20 into a Bricasti M3 via AES/EBU (Audience Front Row or Cardas Clear)

 

[Dizzie]

What do you have for sale?

I'm not sure what's going on I've had my ML 532h for sale for about 2 months.

6.5M Cardas Clear XLR pair
JPS Labs Aluminata speaker cable
Audio Mirror Toubadour III SE DAC
Analog gear listed in my first post.

 

[Puma Cat]

If you want to use a TT to listen to your collection of analogue vinyl recordings, and don't want to hassle with turntable and cartridge set-up, alignment, etc., etc., get a Rega P10 with a pre-installed Apheta 3 cartridge, and "call it a day." It will literally take less than 10 minutes to take it out of the packing materials, connect it and be spinning LPs. It will sound very natural, lifelike and pull an absolutely incredible amount of information out of the record grooves and...it will reliable and durable. Once installed, all you need to do is spin LPs.

Harley Lovegrove has two excellent videos about "iconic" turntables and the Rega P10.
Part 1: Iconic turntables (which one makes it to our listening room?) - YouTube

Part 2: The Rega P10 - Why? (A story of engineering humility & determination) - YouTube

My Michell Gyro SE, SME V tonearm and Koetsu Urushi Vermilion sell new for twice the price of the Rega P10, and if I could trade it "straight across" for a Rega P10 and Apheta 3, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

[NekoAudio]

Thank you for your offer. Simultaneously my dealer offered to come over to check the setup and bring a different cartridge. But I have made my decision. I like the offer I received for buying my vinyl. I am going to exit vinyl and return to enjoying music.

You're welcome. Enjoying the music is the most important thing.

 

[Dizzie]

You're welcome. Enjoying the music is the most important thing.

A lot of my neighbors enjoy barbecuing. I think it is too much work. I tell them I like the eating but not the "sport".

 

[Mr Peabody]

What did you mean by his analog system becoming unbalanced? What is your rule of thumb for cost of table vs cart vs preamp? Sincerely. My cart is about a 1/3 the cost of my table. I wonder if I over spent on the cart.

My friend has a basic Sota, a PS Audio phono stage, he has an old Audioquest cart which is made by Lyra. I would guess the cart is about the same price as the table with inflation. The sound he got from that rig was amazing, I couldn't believe it. I'm thinking that cart must be out of this world good.

I'm wondring if there is such a thing as imbalance in analog within reason.

Well, I'm about 2 hours away from Sacramento, carry Ortofon, and have the equipment and software to perform a thorough calibration. Wally Engineering is even closer, at about 1.5 hours away, and can do precise cartridge measurement and calibration. Getting things calibrated properly can mean the difference between a focused presentation versus one where the music is smeared and has greater distortion.

I'm still not convinced that the 2M Bronze is the problem, but the 2M Black and 2M Black LVB are both designed to have greater detail retrieval, clarity, and a more neutral presentation. It could be the 2M Bronze plus the Zesto tubes are in combination too much in the wrong direction while a 2M Black would be closer on the spectrum to your goal even though it is only a little more expensive.

If you want a monumental improvement, then you could go with the moving coil Cadenza Bronze or Black, but I think that approaches your system being somewhat unbalanced in terms of the financial investment in components. I also share your worry that you might purchase a more expensive cartridge and still not achieve the sound you're looking for. Plus like mulveling mentioned, the Zesto's SUT will also have an impact on the sound of a moving coil cartridge.

The main reason I asked what your other components are is because you said you're happy with the way things sound with digital playback. Knowing what your other components are could help me understand what that sound is.

 

[NekoAudio]

What did you mean by his analog system becoming unbalanced? What is your rule of thumb for cost of table vs cart vs preamp? Sincerely. My cart is about a 1/3 the cost of my table. I wonder if I over spent on the cart.

It's not that I have a particular rule of thumb, as every improved component certainly improves the sound, and price is not necessarily a proxy for quality. But jumping from a 2M Bronze to a Cadenza Bronze / Black is a significant price difference, and maybe a better turntable or phono stage would be a better investment. The cartridge is the component that will wear out (of course depending on use), and the component that is relatively easy to replace. I have a client who pretty much replaces his cartridge every 2 years. The turntable is probably the least convenient to replace, and also what you're most likely to hold onto long-term.

 

[a.wayne]

This is going to sound like a strange question but it is serious. I have someone coming tomorrow to give me an estimate on purchasing 7’ of vinyl from the 60s-90s. Some of it shows use but many of the albums were only played once or twice to copy to cassette using a Nakamachi deck. There is not a lot of noise, clicks, or pops and the albums are not warped. Covers are in excellent condition. I do not have to decide on selling the albums immediately but I do want to make a decision soon about my entire vinyl system.

My TT had long ago expired so a couple of years ago I decided to resurrect my collection. I needed new music, even if it was old. I have a lot of music on vinyl that I do not have on digital and many of the CDs of early music are not that good. I purchased a TT and cleaner and did a marathon cleaning of 100 albums and used new sleeves. Compared to my excellent digital setup the vinyl sounds horrible. Vinyl is 2-dimensional and lacking in the harmonic structure that defines a guitar or even drums. My Sound Lab speakers are capable of so much more than the vinyl setup is revealing.

I have been to many large audio shows and the best rooms were most often vinyl and tubes. I did not expect to reach that level but what I have is not listenable. The TT was set up by a dealer who has at least 24 TTs in his store so he is serious and doesn’t just have a TT or two because customers expect it.

Is my system too far toward the bottom end? Am I expecting too much from it? Is there a reasonable way to salvage it? I know there is always something better and someone is immediately going to recommend a $5K cartridge and a $500 mat. That is not going to happen. All the dealer would tell me was I needed to buy all new, modern pressings. If that is the case why are older albums still desirable? Replacing all my vinyl does not make sense to me and it definitely is not the reason I purchased new equipment.

My analog system:

VPI Prime in Walnut with Ortofon 2M Bronze cartridge.
VPI cleaning machine HW-16.5
Zesto Audio Andros 1.2 phono pre
Cardas Cygnus Phono 1.25M RCA/RCA

Please ignore me if you find my post too bizarre. Perhaps this is only part of the grieving process of letting go of so many hours spent and memories etched. :sigh:

Just a bad Vinyl setup , its not really close if done correctly , also not impossible to have bad vinyl pressings too , you did not list your complete system so hard to determine or offer a good reason as to why, but for sure to be this far off , very bad analog setup ...!


Regards ...

 

[a.wayne]

Your post is not at all bizarre. It’s a tough decision to make as there are a lot more things involved with vinyl playback than fidelity.

As I improved my vinyl and digital systems they began to sound more and more alike.
My best sources are still vinyl but digital versions sound better on many of the vinyl titles I own.
If I didn’t already own a lot of records I’m not sure I’d get into it.

So I’m not an unrecoverable vinyl nutjob.

You’ve got a good setup. Great phono stage. Great turntable. The cartridge is the weak link. This is my opinion of course, but I’ve never liked the inexpensive Ortofon cartridges.

So if you are at a crossroads and want to throw another $2k to $3k at your vinyl system you may get a result that pleases you. Or not. That’s the risk. You’ve already said you don’t wan’t to do that, so I get it.

Or you can try for another setup - because there are a lot of levers to pull in setup that impact the overall sound. The setup would include geometry, VTF, VTA, Azimuth, and anti-skate. Ideally it would be done in your home. I would not assume your dealer knows what they are doing. They may, or may not. It’s a crap shoot and fewer and fewer people truly know how to set up a high end turntable.

Vinyl setup is an art that few have mastered.

Maybe your dealer can provide a demo for you.

At any rate good luck, you’re in a tough spot and there is no right answer.

If both start to sound alike you are prolly running a non discrete PP, or using some form of digital processing , You may or may not prefer one over the other but in no way does an analog TT sounds like digital ...


Regards

 

[a.wayne]

I agree with others here in that I believe your weakest link is the cartridge. What I experienced was that until I got to a certain point on my MC cartridge my analog rig just didn't engage me. However once I found a great analog dealer and listening to a truly great cartridge on a great table there was no going back. At this point my analog front end is my preferred listening source generally but as always the mastering is really important and I have CD's that sound better than the vinyl when the vinyl mastering was more of an afterthought. Good luck but if you are trying to stay within a lower budget on the analog side and you have a really good digital front end then you may want to consider sticking to digital ... that can be really good too! Just do whatever you enjoy most!

George

Actually its the other way around you need to spend more on digital to exceed the performance of a decent analog TT setup , especially at current "look at Me" DAC prices ...


Regards