Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

[PeterA]

p.s, so with no digital in your system, how do you address all the bass mode peaks and dips etc in your room? You don't mind hearing them?

Jim Smith addressed them as best he could, first through measurements, then by listening to carefully locate the listening seat position and then speaker positions. The room is not perfect, but by the time he left, the sound was pretty darn good.

The funny thing is that I sometimes attend small ensemble performances in actual chamber settings. A couple of years ago, I changed seats during the break between movements. I distinctly remember hearing a bass node peak during the solo cello. No, I did not really mind hearing that. I quickly noticed it, mentioned it to my friend, and enjoyed the rest of the performance. After all, it was a real performance of acoustic instruments in a real space, the way the instruments were originally meant to be heard. I certainly would not have wanted that performance mic'd, amplified, and then altered digitally to rid the room of bass mode peaks and dips.

 

[PeterA]

Heresy, you just revoked your audiophile card


All kidding aside, quite astute. Yes, what better way to recreate that kind of concert sound than with actual concert sound type speakers! Actually, there are some bonafide audiophile systems that use what are "PA" speakers, JBL, Danley Soundlabs, QSC etc that folks swear by. Obviously no bling looks but for those who prioritize sound over all other factors, might be the ticket. As always YMMV.
Those super high sensitivity designs are like electron microscopes for any system noise. So with stuff like vinyl...beware.

cheers,

AJ

So are we now saying that the benchmark is amplified electronic instruments on a stage: "that kind of concert sound"? If so, it reminds me of a fascinating experience I had at the NYC audio show in 2012 or so. One exhibitor demoed a small KEF speaker system playing some amplified pop music recorded to digital. The volume was extreme. Distortion was high and it was a very unpleasant experience. He concluded by inviting us to a live show in one of the hotel's function rooms later that evening. My friend and I went and ate bad cheese on stale crackers and drank dreadful red wine. The band then played. The speakers were KEF monitors. The volume was outrageous and again the distortion made me cringe. I left pretty quickly, but not before telling my friend that that KEF/digital system we heard earlier that afternoon reminded me more than any other audiophile system we heard during the entire show of the live performance.

So sure, if the standard is loud, distorted, amplified instruments, then I can see how that KEF/digital system sounded pretty much like the real thing. I'll never forget the lesson I learned that day.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Jim Smith addressed them as best he could, first through measurements, then by listening to carefully locate the listening seat position and then speaker positions. The room is not perfect, but by the time he left, the sound was pretty darn good.

Well I must congratulate you. You are the first audiophile I've met whose system hasn't changed in over seven years!

The funny thing is that I sometimes attend small ensemble performances in actual chamber settings. A couple of years ago, I changed seats during the break between movements. I distinctly remember hearing a bass node peak during the solo cello. No, I did not really mind hearing that. I quickly noticed it, mentioned it to my friend, and enjoyed the rest of the performance. After all, it was a real performance of acoustic instruments in a real space, the way the instruments were originally meant to be heard. I certainly would not have wanted that performance mic'd, amplified, and then altered digitally to rid the room of bass mode peaks and dips.

So essentially, you ignore the coloration, even if it adds to piano, vocals, etc, etc.
Fascinating and I think somewhat typical of vinyl aficionados. They simply gate out the things that drive me nuts! They "listen through" all the things I never hear ever in a concert hall, as if it isn't present.
I too have attended small ensemble practices at USF (local U) but never heard any droning, ringing bass modes, nor clicks, pops, wow&flutter, etc.
Might be why I prefer digital. Differences in references.

cheers,

AJ

 

[AJ Soundfield]

So are we now saying that the benchmark is amplified electronic instruments on a stage?

For some folks sure. You and I seem to lean towards acoustic/unamplified, but others might not. Yet another preference scenario.

 

[Willco]

In response to the earlier post comparingPhotography and audio.

As a professional fine art photographer I can agree the parallel with photography is a good one. However, if you know what you’re doing from Image capture through the printing process, high-end digital camera backs will equal or surpass 4 x 5 and 8 x 10 sheet film. But, like audio, it requires Knowledge and experience to do so. Just had to comment on that as it so common for people to assume analog photography is “better“ than the highest level digital.

 

[PeterA]

Well I must congratulate you. You are the first audiophile I've met whose system hasn't changed in over seven years!


So essentially, you ignore the coloration, even if it adds to piano, vocals, etc, etc.
Fascinating and I think somewhat typical of vinyl aficionados. They simply gate out the things that drive me nuts! They "listen through" all the things I never hear ever in a concert hall, as if it isn't present.
I too have attended small ensemble practices at USF (local U) but never heard any droning, ringing bass modes, nor clicks, pops, wow&flutter, etc.
Might be why I prefer digital. Differences in references.

cheers,

AJ

AJ, you are making too many assumptions and IMO trying way too hard to prove something. I never said I ignore the coloration. Nor do I care if it adds to piano, vocals, etc. There is no absolute sound precisely because there is so much variation between instruments and acoustic spaces and the way we hear them. The best we can hope for is to enjoy a somewhat convincing sound from our systems.

I attended a concert of a real instrument being well played in a real space. I simply enjoyed the performance with my friends. I noticed a bass node peak when I changed my seat and commented to by audiophile buddy. I enjoyed the performance, nevertheless. There was nothing not real about it. Nor would I have wanted it "corrected" digitally. I guess that is my preference. And as you say, there is nothing more to discuss when it comes to preferences.

Happy Father's Day! I'm going sailing.

 

[Mike]

I was at a local store and heard a 5 channel system through Bose speakers. It was very immersing. I quite liked it.

Did anyone ever stop to think, at most concerts the musician play one small amp, then mic through the PA. So, is it real or reproduces via EV /JBL drivers and Crown amps. Maybe the way to real Concert sound is to give up on audiophile amps and drivers and use the real thing.

The standard, to me, is unamplified live music in a good acoustic setting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Al M.]

The standard, to me, is unamplified live music in a good acoustic setting.

+ 1

Otherwise we are really just talking about preferences, not quality (J. Gordon Holt said something to that effect as well).

 

[Kingrex]

I was at a local store and heard a 5 channel system through Bose speakers. It was very immersing. I quite liked it.

Did anyone ever stop to think, at most concerts the musician play one small amp, then mic through the PA. So, is it real or reproduces via EV /JBL drivers and Crown amps. Maybe the way to real Concert sound is to give up on audiophile amps and drivers and use the real thing.

Excuse me, they were B&W, not Bose.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

AJ, you are making too many assumptions and IMO trying way too hard to prove something. I never said I ignore the coloration. Nor do I care if it adds to piano, vocals, etc.
There is no absolute sound precisely because there is so much variation between instruments and acoustic spaces and the way we hear them. The best we can hope for is to enjoy a somewhat convincing sound from our systems.

Well, whether it's ignore or don't care, it seems that your room coloration doesn't bother you either way.
Here's the issue with that. If that performance was recorded, with say a 6db boost in the cello bass at say 100Hz, then you play it back in your room with with a 6db 100Hz room mode peak, now you have a 12db peak.
IOW, you have added an "un" real spectral coloration, that never existed live. A different thing than a spectral coloration in the recording. From my point of view, every added coloration, noise, hiss, pops, clicks, crosstalk and frequency distortions, all subtract from "realness". If one's interest is as JGH explained, as close to the "real thing" as possible, then any coloration becomes an impediment.

I attended a concert of a real instrument being well played in a real space. I simply enjoyed the performance with my friends. I noticed a bass node peak when I changed my seat and commented to by audiophile buddy. I enjoyed the performance, nevertheless. There was nothing not real about it. Nor would I have wanted it "corrected" digitally.

Peter, you're a bit confused here. The digital correction is not of the recording, it's of your venue, your room and it's spectral coloration of all recordings. That was the correction I refer to, nothing to do with the recording or performance venue whatsoever.

Happy Father's Day! I'm going sailing.

Same to you, be safe and enjoy!

 

[Jim Smith]

The standard, to me, is unamplified live music in a good acoustic setting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Might be a good place to retire this thread, as all parties (ok, including me) are convinced that they are right, and the arguments are being repeated & repeated & repeated...

IMO, this forum is more enjoyable than most at least partially due to its more typical threads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kingrex]

I was at a 3 piece and they mic the snare. It was so loud on the brush it made it unpleasant. I told someone at intermission but they acted like I was an idiot.

 

[Mike]

Might be a good place to retire this thread, as all parties (ok, including me) are convinced that they are right, and the arguments are being repeated & repeated & repeated...

IMO, this forum is more enjoyable than most at least partially due to its more typical threads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I tend to agree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk