An ugly secret...

[bonzo]

The issue is that I've never read a review, where the reviewer does these things. It's either a "Visiting the Gryphons" or a "Reviewing Diablo 300" sort of thing where they either do as discussed in this topic, go for a sort of first impression thing at a facility and ends up making a review or conclusion. Or they actually brings the equipment with them at their own place. Reviewers should be able to create their own environments, and compare thing that they are familiar with. If the reviewer is not familiar with the products he is reviewing, and has no control. Then surely the review will get out of control, good or bad.

Ah I totally agree with what you are saying now. I think you guys are referring to a particular site.

I was in general talking about visiting compares vs home demos.

I blog on zero-distortion.org.

1. I have run Lampizator compares by taking it to 3 different Esoteric K01 people, comparing it to Trinity in one, Aries Cerat in another, Nagra in a third etc etc
2. I have visited Apogee systems in UK, Amsterdam, Germany, Switz, and NY – there are people running it from 2kw power to SET amps – imagine if a reviewer with a SET amp got hold of an Apogee – this has happened. Luckily it came out favorable.
3. Recently I heard the Berning amps in one system. I compared the pre to another system, put another pre in the Berning system, then took the stuff to a nearby audiophile to compare in his house and gear.
4. When I heard the Trios in the factory, I first called another person who had them in a smaller room to visit and confirm if they could do in that room what they did in the factory. They did.
5. When I went to Myles, I did so because I could compare Lyra Atlas to Ortofon A95 by someone who is good at setting them up – otherwise, I would not have bothered to go to someone with an Atlas alone, I would not be able to make an impression.
6. I have heard many Wilson Alexandrias with SET amps, Spectral, VTL. I must congratulate Shane for picking the Dagostinos – best I heard on them (though not at his place) .
7. I have compared Burmester 909, 911, 956, preamps, to Gryphon colosseum, Nagra, Symphonic Line Kraft, and Boulder 2160. I have compared, apart from that Colosseum, the Mephisto to Luxman, Luxman to Viola Symphony and Ypsilon Aelius, Spectral to VTL, Airtight, and Tenor 75. I could go on. But you get the message. I never document about electronics or analog stuff I have not compared. If it is at a show, I caveat accordingly. In fact, I don't document a lot, so my reference components say a lot.

Feel free to subscribe for life. It’s free J

Not to mention my review partner will be doing only inhouse demos, but he does not have my breakneck pace J

And Larry Toy will be doing music reviews because he has 15000 original decca and vinyl and 500 tapes and 2 Bosendorfers and…

Fyi, we don't do reviews. We do "Listening Notes" which we considered as an alternate name. Personally I wanted to name the blog Moneypit but was overruled.

 

[Mike]

[*]When I heard the Trios in the factory, I first called another person who had them in a smaller room set up to confirm if they could do in that room what they did in the factory. They did.
[*]

[emoji106][emoji106]

 

[Kuoppis]

The challenge is, if there are are too many unfamiliar things in the review setup, there simply is no way to determine which unfamiliar element accounts for which effect you are hearing.


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[KeithR]

The challenge is, if there are are too many unfamiliar things in the review setup, there simply is no way to determine which unfamiliar element accounts for which effect you are hearing.


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+1

Room effects are so dramatic as well. I never understand people who can tell if a DAC at a show is great or not. I think you can make general comments about amp/speaker combination, but other than that its very tough.

w/ regard to Ron's visits to be fair, its not a review but the decision process that led to his ultimate speaker purchase.

mep- I have great respect for reviewers and don't want any part of it. I think there is a lot of cynicism about them that is undeserved. I don't care that you get accomodation pricing for instance - people don't know how much time and effort it takes to listen/write reviews.

My only issue with reviewers is that there are too few good ones. In the print mags, TAS has just become pretty looking ad copy. Harley won't even compare units anymore and JV has no integrity. I hope they've hired some better reviewers recently. On the online front, appears several of the questionable sites (Stereomojo or Stereotimes anyone?) are shuttering or will be at some point. SM was so bad I emailed the lead reviewer about two amps he "reviewed" and he couldn't tell me the differences. Meanwhile, Srajan emailed me back on a similar subject with 2-3 recommendations and why he chose them. Says something eh?

 

[Jim Smith]

My issue with traveling to hear a product in additional venues is that I have never - not once in 30 years - heard a system at any manufacturers' or dealers' showroom when I thought the system was set-up well enough to be sure that what I was hearing was a reliable indicator of the component's performance.

I want to believe that someone who reviews components is highly competent at set-up of their systems in their rooms, and therefore would expect the subsequent review to be more substantial, if for no other reason than a comparison is being made in known surroundings.

That being said, no way would I want to be a reviewer. The industry accommodations in no way make up for the tremendous time & effort in doing the job well. I greatly respect those who do it, with a few known exceptions such as those reviewers listed earlier in this thread.

 

[bonzo]

My issue with traveling to hear a product in additional venues is that I have never - not once in 30 years - heard a system at any manufacturers' or dealers' showroom when I thought the system was set-up well enough to be sure that what I was hearing was a reliable indicator of the component's performance.

Exactly - which is why you want to listen to it at the dealers' show room, at an audiophiles, at another audiophile's, etc. Example - When it comes to Spectral, I have been to Innovative Audio in NY, I have been to 2 other audiophiles in London, and another dealer in Italy. If you really want to know what Spectrals can do, and where they work, go to Marty's.

 

[Jim Smith]

Exactly - which is why you want to listen to it at the dealers' show room, at an audiophiles, at another audiophile's, etc. Example - When it comes to Spectral, I have been to Innovative Audio in NY, I have been to 2 other audiophiles in London, and another dealer in Italy. If you really want to know what Spectrals can do, and where they work, go to Marty's.

Seems we simply have different viewpoints on this topic.

I do enjoy your posts however (always read them). :cantstoplooking:

 

[KeithR]

Exactly - which is why you want to listen to it at the dealers' show room, at an audiophiles, at another audiophile's, etc. Example - When it comes to Spectral, I have been to Innovative Audio in NY, I have been to 2 other audiophiles in London, and another dealer in Italy. If you really want to know what Spectrals can do, and where they work, go to Marty's.

Funny, Innovative Audio spent all that money on rooms years ago (that frankly sound dead) - while Sound by Singer had a far better backroom with minimal treatment.

 

[bonzo]

Funny, Innovative Audio spent all that money on rooms years ago (that frankly sound dead) - while Sound by Singer had a far better backroom with minimal treatment.

I thought it was a fair room to make a compare of VTL vs Spectral, and since I had heard Spectral in other rooms, it came together.

Btw, Bob’s Rhapsody room still has my favorite Magico set up because they are driven by Vitus, and you can compare Vitus to Kondo Kagura on Magicos.

 

[bonzo]

Another example - I have compared the Reed, Pluto top model, Feickert Firebird, and Thales once. I achieved some consistency there, and sensed an issue with the set up of one TT. I did not post my findings. I am visiting again. With analog it is always difficult to achieve complete consistency, so will be caveated accordingly.

 

[bonzo]

The challenge is, if there are are too many unfamiliar things in the review setup, there simply is no way to determine which unfamiliar element accounts for which effect you are hearing.


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Yes which is why you average it out across set ups and see if the sound pattern repeats. If you compare Burmester to Gryphon, Vitus, Nagra, or the other way, in different systems and hear the same sonics, you know. Your challenge arguments assume that only one visit has been done for a fixed session only and the guy has no other experience. That will hold true only at hifi shows, and if the reviewer is indeed doing only a one off

 

[Kuoppis]

Let me borrow from Jim here: seems we simply have different viewpoints on this topic.

And btw, that's absolutely fine. Diversity makes things more interesting.


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[KeithR]

I thought it was a fair room to make a compare of VTL vs Spectral, and since I had heard Spectral in other rooms, it came together.

Btw, Bob’s Rhapsody room still has my favorite Magico set up because they are driven by Vitus, and you can compare Vitus to Kondo Kagura on Magicos.

Appears they did a big renovation in 2015- hopefully much better sounding. They were the first in NYC to do the floating room "box in a box" construction and lined the rooms with acoustic paneling and carpet.

 

[bonzo]

Appears they did a big renovation in 2015- hopefully much better sounding. They were the first in NYC to do the floating room "box in a box" construction and lined the rooms with acoustic paneling and carpet.

They have many rooms there. XlF will be challenging in most rooms. These rooms should be used as a step in a review, not THE review, which is what I am trying to get across

 

[Rhapsody]

I thought it was a fair room to make a compare of VTL vs Spectral, and since I had heard Spectral in other rooms, it came together.

Btw, Bob’s Rhapsody room still has my favorite Magico set up because they are driven by Vitus, and you can compare Vitus to Kondo Kagura on Magicos.

Hey Ked, (yes not Adam It's funny I have now become enamored with the SM011's on the M3's. I added subs to the mix and with the subs tuned in and giving the weight that the SM102's delivery so well now being present, the SM011's are so transparent and open and extended that it has become my choice on the M3's or any other speakers that I have in the zoo. Come back for a visit

 

[KeithR]

They have many rooms there. XlF will be challenging in most rooms. These rooms should be used as a step in a review, not THE review, which is what I am trying to get across

I hear you - but if the room is studio style dead, hard to judge much in it and in particular how it would perform when you get the piece home.

 

[XV-1]

Ah I totally agree with what you are saying now. I think you guys are referring to a particular site.

I was in general talking about visiting compares vs home demos.

I blog on zero-distortion.org.

1. I have run Lampizator compares by taking it to 3 different Esoteric K01 people, comparing it to Trinity in one, Aries Cerat in another, Nagra in a third etc etc
2. I have visited Apogee systems in UK, Amsterdam, Germany, Switz, and NY – there are people running it from 2kw power to SET amps – imagine if a reviewer with a SET amp got hold of an Apogee – this has happened. Luckily it came out favorable.
3. Recently I heard the Berning amps in one system. I compared the pre to another system, put another pre in the Berning system, then took the stuff to a nearby audiophile to compare in his house and gear.
4. When I heard the Trios in the factory, I first called another person who had them in a smaller room to visit and confirm if they could do in that room what they did in the factory. They did.
5. When I went to Myles, I did so because I could compare Lyra Atlas to Ortofon A95 by someone who is good at setting them up – otherwise, I would not have bothered to go to someone with an Atlas alone, I would not be able to make an impression.
6. I have heard many Wilson Alexandrias with SET amps, Spectral, VTL. I must congratulate Shane for picking the Dagostinos – best I heard on them (though not at his place) .
7. I have compared Burmester 909, 911, 956, preamps, to Gryphon colosseum, Nagra, Symphonic Line Kraft, and Boulder 2160. I have compared, apart from that Colosseum, the Mephisto to Luxman, Luxman to Viola Symphony and Ypsilon Aelius, Spectral to VTL, Airtight, and Tenor 75. I could go on. But you get the message. I never document about electronics or analog stuff I have not compared. If it is at a show, I caveat accordingly. In fact, I don't document a lot, so my reference components say a lot.

Feel free to subscribe for life. It’s free J

Not to mention my review partner will be doing only inhouse demos, but he does not have my breakneck pace J

And Larry Toy will be doing music reviews because he has 15000 original decca and vinyl and 500 tapes and 2 Bosendorfers and…

Fyi, we don't do reviews. We do "Listening Notes" which we considered as an alternate name. Personally I wanted to name the blog Moneypit but was overruled.

Hey Ked

And there is the clear distinction. You are clear that your varied travels and opinions are listening notes, not reviews.
Everyone I am sure understands that and respects that and you are clearly having fun.

What is poor form imo is when an afternoon listening session is posted in a magazine or e-zine and called a review. It is not and frankly takes away from the credibility of the such e-zine.

Cheers

 

[bonzo]

Hey Ked

And there is the clear distinction. You are clear that your varied travels and opinions are listening notes, not reviews.
Everyone I am sure understands that and respects that and you are clearly having fun.

What is poor form imo is when an afternoon listening session is posted in a magazine or e-zine and called a review. It is not and frankly takes away from the credibility if the such e-zine.

Cheers

Yes just fyi, even me listening notes, are not afternoon sessions. Caveats and pointers are added to other people with relevant experiences so that it can form a compendium for the reader to research.