Amplifier chips

Mr Peabody

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Probably around the time of going into the 80's I remember the big thing, buzz word, if you will was discrete circuitry. It was better than IC's, integrated circuits, in audio gear. Receivers at the time like Harman Kardon at the time cost a premium because they were discrete opposed to the many competitors who used IC's.

It seems now with the push to Class D we are being told IC's, chips, are good. Or at least on par with those built with discrete circuitry.

I wondered about this and watched a tutorial of sorts on Class D. Probably just enough to be dangerous, LOL The guy literally made a Class D amp on a circuit board with a chip, power supply and the appropriate caps to do the low and high filtering. Some of these Class D amps today have some hefty price tags.

I bring this up with a genuine curiosity if chips are better now than those used back when in amps or is it apples and oranges? If IC's were not as good as discrete circuits then wouldn't the same still hold true today? Could the circuit being a chip be a handicap to Class D ever really being able to compete with a equal A/B amp?

I realize the IC's used back when were not used for Class D.
 
I managed an audio store back then. The "chip" amplifiers were designed to simply be lower priced. In general, companies such as Sony, etc., used chips to make it cheaper. Companies like Yamaha made a lot better amplifier using discrete circuits. It was easy to show and easy to hear the difference. I sold a lot of Yamaha, Harmon Kardon, Nakamichi, etc., because of this.
 
Nelson Pass has said in numerous interviews, discrete through hole parts like transistors are becoming obsolete in industries that drive the parts business. ICs and surface mount parts have taken over for numerous reasons, except sound quality. the audio business isnt large enough to influence the production of discrete parts. Bottom line the reason is economic.
 
I can tell you this: my receivers from the 1970’s (Pioneer SX1250 and Marantz 2270) use discrete components of individual transistors. The older receivers also used larger components that you could easily see. Modern receivers use integrated circuits and very small parts they call surface mount components. Also there could be differences in the amount of negative feedback used.

I will tell you that my older receivers still sound amazing and I wouldn’t want to put up against a similar priced receiver today. It would get smoked in all areas I bet.

Any my vintage JBL’s…oh yeah.
 

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While there are decent “chip” amps, many are limited in power due to cooling concerns. The real culprit of change has been the surface mount technology that is miniaturizing electronics over time. Through-hole components are becoming limited over time.

The DIY hobbiest, and certain manufacturers, will spend time measuring the discrete components to be sure of the values as they use the parts, but also to “match” them within the circuits, and to try and balance the R/L channels.

Surface mount technology is being used more and more. Boulder, and MSB, both use this a lot. I also know that the Gallium transistor, used in my Class D amps, are discrete components, not a “chip amp”

I have done transistor matching, and resistor value measurements on surface mount components. My ability to use them is rather limited though, and I have only used them sparingly. It’s a different set of tools, and my eyes are not the best anymore.
 
Things have definitely changed a lot. Back in the day the differences where more clear cut. With tech changes, etc., the differences are not so clear any more.
 
Probably around the time of going into the 80's I remember the big thing, buzz word, if you will was discrete circuitry. It was better than IC's, integrated circuits, in audio gear. Receivers at the time like Harman Kardon at the time cost a premium because they were discrete opposed to the many competitors who used IC's.

It seems now with the push to Class D we are being told IC's, chips, are good. Or at least on par with those built with discrete circuitry.

I wondered about this and watched a tutorial of sorts on Class D. Probably just enough to be dangerous, LOL The guy literally made a Class D amp on a circuit board with a chip, power supply and the appropriate caps to do the low and high filtering. Some of these Class D amps today have some hefty price tags.

I bring this up with a genuine curiosity if chips are better now than those used back when in amps or is it apples and oranges? If IC's were not as good as discrete circuits then wouldn't the same still hold true today? Could the circuit being a chip be a handicap to Class D ever really being able to compete with a equal A/B amp?

I realize the IC's used back when were not used for Class D.
The cheaper class D amps tend to use ICs that encompass most of the class D circuit.

The better class D amps tend to use individual parts to compose the circuit. Some of those parts are chips but have a more general use, for example in any class D there is a comparator circuit. That circuit compares the incoming audio signal to the switching frequency and so produces an on or off state at its output. There are good comparators chips (that have a lot in common with opamps) and there are some excellent ones. This allows the designer more flexibility in designing the class D circuit. In a chip-based class D there is no such flexibility; you're stuck with whatever performance or lack thereof is built into the chip.

WRT your question about older amps corrosion is a factor that can kill older semiconductors. Seems to me newer parts are sealed better.

In the case of opamps, newer opamps perform quite a lot better than older ones. Anyone repairing older guitar effects pedals knows how important it is to use the right parts because the newer opamps often change the 'sound' of the pedal.

It is very difficult to build an opamp from discrete parts that has the kind of performance modern opamps have today!

With any amp that uses a chip for 90% of its circuit, availability down the road is often a concern. If the chip goes out of production it could be a real problem finding one that can be used to effect a repair. This is less likely to happen with class D circuits where smaller ICs are put together to create the whole.

I can tell you this: my receivers from the 1970’s (Pioneer SX1250 and Marantz 2270) use discrete components of individual transistors. The older receivers also used larger components that you could easily see. Modern receivers use integrated circuits and very small parts they call surface mount components. Also there could be differences in the amount of negative feedback used.

I will tell you that my older receivers still sound amazing and I wouldn’t want to put up against a similar priced receiver today. It would get smoked in all areas I bet.
Any electronics from the 1970s and 1980s have suspect electrolytic capacitors inside. They really should be replaced if you intend to keep using the amp or receiver.

Amps and receivers like the ones of your post tend to have electrolytics in the signal path so there can be quite a lot of them in there! If they are not sorted out you really are not hearing the unit at its best.

Oddly it was during this period that some of the best linear semiconductors were produced for consumer gear in particular. These days semiconductor producers would really rather make parts for switching applications; linear semiconductors are getting harder to find.

I just repaired a CM Labs solid state amp yesterday that made 100 Watts/channel. It was a brute in its day (I'm thinking late 1960s). But in terms of sound or performance there are older tube amps that were wider bandwidth and lower distortion. That amp combined both germanium and silicon transistors direct coupled together (creepy, but actually pretty reliable although there's no thermal feedback so thermal runaway is an issue), although the output was capacitively coupled. There's a lot to be said about how amplifier topologies have improved over the decades!
 
The cheaper class D amps tend to use ICs that encompass most of the class D circuit.

The better class D amps tend to use individual parts to compose the circuit. Some of those parts are chips but have a more general use, for example in any class D there is a comparator circuit. That circuit compares the incoming audio signal to the switching frequency and so produces an on or off state at its output. There are good comparators chips (that have a lot in common with opamps) and there are some excellent ones. This allows the designer more flexibility in designing the class D circuit. In a chip-based class D there is no such flexibility; you're stuck with whatever performance or lack thereof is built into the chip.

WRT your question about older amps corrosion is a factor that can kill older semiconductors. Seems to me newer parts are sealed better.

In the case of opamps, newer opamps perform quite a lot better than older ones. Anyone repairing older guitar effects pedals knows how important it is to use the right parts because the newer opamps often change the 'sound' of the pedal.

It is very difficult to build an opamp from discrete parts that has the kind of performance modern opamps have today!

With any amp that uses a chip for 90% of its circuit, availability down the road is often a concern. If the chip goes out of production it could be a real problem finding one that can be used to effect a repair. This is less likely to happen with class D circuits where smaller ICs are put together to create the whole.


Any electronics from the 1970s and 1980s have suspect electrolytic capacitors inside. They really should be replaced if you intend to keep using the amp or receiver.

Amps and receivers like the ones of your post tend to have electrolytics in the signal path so there can be quite a lot of them in there! If they are not sorted out you really are not hearing the unit at its best.

Oddly it was during this period that some of the best linear semiconductors were produced for consumer gear in particular. These days semiconductor producers would really rather make parts for switching applications; linear semiconductors are getting harder to find.

I just repaired a CM Labs solid state amp yesterday that made 100 Watts/channel. It was a brute in its day (I'm thinking late 1960s). But in terms of sound or performance there are older tube amps that were wider bandwidth and lower distortion. That amp combined both germanium and silicon transistors direct coupled together (creepy, but actually pretty reliable although there's no thermal feedback so thermal runaway is an issue), although the output was capacitively coupled. There's a lot to be said about how amplifier topologies have improved over the decades!
All my vintage gear has been completely overhauled. I would definitely take them over any $3k receiver today or any class D anything.
 
The $900 SX 1250 of 1976 would cost over $5100 in today's dollars. That's probably the same ballpark as the current retail cost for a used SX 1250 in good condition plus a complete overhaul.
 
All my vintage gear has been completely overhauled. I would definitely take them over any $3k receiver today or any class D anything.
:) a lot of receivers these days use class D anyway.

BTW if you have any transistor failures with Japanese-built receivers such as yours, the place to get replacements (usually) is East Coast Transistor. A lot of the seemingly Japanese transistors (2SA, 2SB, 2SC, 2SD and 2SK) you see on ebay tend to be Chinese counterfeits and might not work properly in a circuit designed for the actual part.

But I am curious. Are you of the opinion that the pinnacle of amplifier and receiver engineering happened in the 1970s and early 1980s?
 
The $900 SX 1250 of 1976 would cost over $5100 in today's dollars. That's probably the same ballpark as the current retail cost for a used SX 1250 in good condition plus a complete overhaul.
I got mine for $3k and it’s minty mint with complete overhaul.
 
:) a lot of receivers these days use class D anyway.

BTW if you have any transistor failures with Japanese-built receivers such as yours, the place to get replacements (usually) is East Coast Transistor. A lot of the seemingly Japanese transistors (2SA, 2SB, 2SC, 2SD and 2SK) you see on ebay tend to be Chinese counterfeits and might not work properly in a circuit designed for the actual part.

But I am curious. Are you of the opinion that the pinnacle of amplifier and receiver engineering happened in the 1970s and early 1980s?
I think the receivers of the 1970’s sound better than their 2025 equivalent.
 
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