AI guided Room Optimization.
- Thread starter crwilli
- Start date
crwilli
Well-known member
- Thread Author
- #102
A good topic for another thread. But I have no insight that supports your premise. Those of us who are dedicated to two channel audio think your premise is nice but irrelevant.
This thread should be focused on how an AI engine can help the average audiophile optimize their room & system using REW.
Lee Scoggins
Member
That’s not been my experience with digital conversions.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
So you think 99% of music recorded since the 80s sounds "degraded"? Ok.
Hopefully see you in Feb, we'll put that to the test ;-).
I would say 99.99% of so called audiophiles are actually stereophiles. As you say dedicated to two channel. You and Lee have probably not read, or long forgotten this article https://www.stereophile.com/content/wheres-real-magazine-we-see-it-february-2001
For myself and the one or two other audio philes out there, >2ch isn't heresy. That includes even playing back 2ch recordings. Of course "fidelity" means different things to those who attend symphonies and acoustic jazz etc, vs those who do not...listening mainly to non acoustic, rock concert etc. As always, taste and preferences rule. All good.
Hopefully see you both soon so we can stich this all together.
cheers
AJ
p.s. forgot another perspective of the above https://web.archive.org/web/20180521025158/http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm
W9TR
Active member
It’s been really interesting designing my theater. Home Cinema is a whole other country, where a system integrator’s end product is not a collection of equipment, it is an entertainment space designed to meet very specific technical requirements.
They choose products based on technical performance first. They eschew unproven or unrepeatable tweaks.
They judge their results on an objective set of performance metrics specified by published standards.
I’m falling between the two camps, HT and audiophile, embracing the goodness each brings to the table. My 2 channel system will have two totally different personalities. Totally analog (except for digital audio as a source) no processing, just a straight stereo. OR, Trinnov managed space with the most advanced DSP room correction available today. Time will tell where I land.
You can do a lot with AI guided room optimization. AI can make a bunch of calculations and recommendations based on your room. This is also the core of a good home cinema installation. Given a set of room constraints, how do you optimize?
For 2 channel you can do a lot with main speakers and sub positioning. If you are running full range mains and low pass filtered subs, you will achieve a good result. Most everything will sound pretty good.
But if you really want fast articulate bass you have to time align your mains and subs so that the pressure wave created by both arrive at your ears at precisely the same time.
If you have a sub that uses DSP it will have a time delay, usually between 1 m Sec and 10 mSec. Sound travels at approx 1135 ft/sec so 1 mSec is 1.1 ft and 10 mSec is 11 ft. You can move your main speakers back from the plane of the sub 1 ft, no problem. But 10 ft?
Nope. And most people place subs behind their mains, which is aesthetically necessarily and acoustically incorrect.
Even though the frequency response steady state will be fine, pink noise will look great, etc., your system will have slower bass than it could if you time aligned everything.
The dirty little secret? You have to delay the signal going to your mains by the subwoofer delay. To do that, you have to use DSP.
Shocking breach of audiophile protocol.
They choose products based on technical performance first. They eschew unproven or unrepeatable tweaks.
They judge their results on an objective set of performance metrics specified by published standards.
I’m falling between the two camps, HT and audiophile, embracing the goodness each brings to the table. My 2 channel system will have two totally different personalities. Totally analog (except for digital audio as a source) no processing, just a straight stereo. OR, Trinnov managed space with the most advanced DSP room correction available today. Time will tell where I land.
You can do a lot with AI guided room optimization. AI can make a bunch of calculations and recommendations based on your room. This is also the core of a good home cinema installation. Given a set of room constraints, how do you optimize?
For 2 channel you can do a lot with main speakers and sub positioning. If you are running full range mains and low pass filtered subs, you will achieve a good result. Most everything will sound pretty good.
But if you really want fast articulate bass you have to time align your mains and subs so that the pressure wave created by both arrive at your ears at precisely the same time.
If you have a sub that uses DSP it will have a time delay, usually between 1 m Sec and 10 mSec. Sound travels at approx 1135 ft/sec so 1 mSec is 1.1 ft and 10 mSec is 11 ft. You can move your main speakers back from the plane of the sub 1 ft, no problem. But 10 ft?
Nope. And most people place subs behind their mains, which is aesthetically necessarily and acoustically incorrect.
Even though the frequency response steady state will be fine, pink noise will look great, etc., your system will have slower bass than it could if you time aligned everything.
The dirty little secret? You have to delay the signal going to your mains by the subwoofer delay. To do that, you have to use DSP.
Shocking breach of audiophile protocol.
Kingrex
Active member
Is.the only point of this that people enjoy digital? As far as a technology that goes eyond 2 channel, the media is not there. Unless I missread the article and software was taking a 2 channel signal and turning it into 8 channel?So you think 99% of music recorded since the 80s sounds "degraded"? Ok.
Hopefully see you in Feb, we'll put that to the test ;-).
I would say 99.99% of so called audiophiles are actually stereophiles. As you say dedicated to two channel. You and Lee have probably not read, or long forgotten this article https://www.stereophile.com/content/wheres-real-magazine-we-see-it-february-2001
For myself and the one or two other audio philes out there, >2ch isn't heresy. That includes even playing back 2ch recordings. Of course "fidelity" means different things to those who attend symphonies and acoustic jazz etc, vs those who do not...listening mainly to non acoustic, rock concert etc. As always, taste and preferences rule. All good.
Hopefully see you both soon so we can stich this all together.
cheers
AJ
p.s. forgot another perspective of the above https://web.archive.org/web/20180521025158/http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm
Lee Scoggins
Member
So you think 99% of music recorded since the 80s sounds "degraded"? Ok.
Hopefully see you in Feb, we'll put that to the test ;-).
I would say 99.99% of so called audiophiles are actually stereophiles. As you say dedicated to two channel. You and Lee have probably not read, or long forgotten this article https://www.stereophile.com/content/wheres-real-magazine-we-see-it-february-2001
For myself and the one or two other audio philes out there, >2ch isn't heresy. That includes even playing back 2ch recordings. Of course "fidelity" means different things to those who attend symphonies and acoustic jazz etc, vs those who do not...listening mainly to non acoustic, rock concert etc. As always, taste and preferences rule. All good.
Hopefully see you both soon so we can stich this all together.
cheers
AJ
p.s. forgot another perspective of the above https://web.archive.org/web/20180521025158/http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm
1. Yes, there is no question that the two step ADC-DAC conversion is lossy compared to the live event.
2. I have no issue at all with multi-channel playback. It sounds amazing when done well. I had a chance to hear and see the Atmos mixing of the Talking Heads catalog in person with Jerry Harrison. The track Drugs sounded spectacular in Atmos.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
No, its that a few people recognize and enjoy audio fidelity aka realism well beyond 2ch. True audiophiles?
Yes you badly misread. The articles is about a 5+ ch recording and playback system called Perceptual Soundfield Reconstruction. However, on a separate note, 2ch aka stereo music as we all play, is capable of a more immersive aka realistic render with additional channels, called upmixing. Been demoing that way for over a decade. A separate topic.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
Ok lets see the evidence. Out of curiosity, how do you listen to any non analog >80s recording? Oh, BTW, stereo is a lossy format.
Very cool. I'm a bit torn by things like Atmos music, which can sound very good or flat out awful. Exactly like SACD, DVD-A etc, it comes down to the whims of the producer. As pointed out in the articles I linked, luckily PSR can't do that. There is no production.
Kingrex
Active member
Your seem to say I read it correctly. You are referring to a system that is basically hypothetical since its based on the use of a proprietary recording technique no one uses. Some 5 channel wiz bang yea process. Sure, multi channel is likely far superior to 2 channel. But I also read it was played back in a well designed, purpose built room. And the speakers were spread around the listening space. The recording industry would laugh you right out the door. For starters, few people who seek reference level playback even get to a place of building a good room. If they did, they could cut their expenditure on gear by 80% and have better sound. And even in a living room, its hard enough to get a spouse to accept a stereo. Let alone a sphere of speakers around the room. In short, there is such a miniscule market for the product no label will utilize the recording technology.
Lacking the playback media, the next best option is a BACCH. The software does a very good of creating a immersive, layered and deep soundstage. And works with most all 2 channel recordings. Is it perfect, no. Buy its very good. In most systems, better than not having it as it corrects a lot of speaker setup and room reflection issues. It works much better if the room is purpose built and the speakers are placed as close to optimal as possible. Now your cooking with Bacon!!.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
No, it's not that, it's what you say here-
It's what I have and use. PSR. Others too.
Correct, very much like the millions of HTs out there. JJs PSR room was indeed lossy at LF. I have a way of doing that without that type of construction, in any normal room, obviously not a 8x8 box.
You mean the same labels touting Atmos which uses around 12 speakers vs PSRs 5? No one will accuse labels of having any sense. All they care about is $$. I could care less anyway, it's for true audio philes like myself, so maybe 5 people.
I've heard it many a time, it's the same old binaural that's been around forever, who could forget the Polk SDAs, Carver Sonic holography, etc. BACCH is just the most refined version, agreed. Perfect for stereophiles and head locking or tracking devices. Or a disaster with some type of mic array recordings. Chicken salad out of chicken...
Tastes and preferences vary of course. Ditto for standards of fidelity.
Kingrex
Active member
I just don't get what your point is. Ok, you and 4 other people have a stereo no one else has???????? So what. Why do we care?
I can't really think of any business that is not about making money. The music industry included. I am going to work inside the box and utilize the media they produce in the best way I see fit. That is a 2 channel stereo that works with the readily available artist that has been produced since the beginning of music reproduction.
I will improve upon my room to reduce issues. Then get appropriate subs and probably place them around the room to reduce modes. Most definitely using AI and REW to get the best initial impulse response possible. If I have to use some DSP to get it right. So be it. If I can do it without, maybe better. Not sure. I have no idea if DSP negatively affects frequencies under 100 hertz.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
That was a joke. A lot more people have PSR tech than 5. It's not stereo. How many so called audiophiles do you know who are seeking that level of fidelity? This isn't a new concept https://www.stereophile.com/content/45-years-stereophile
Hard to argue against preference. But that has zero relevance to fidelity to X. I have no care whether you care, its a discussion forum. I brought it up as a use of DSP that is second to none fidelity wise.
It doesn't if properly implemented, even above 100 Hz. But it can and does cause all types of psychogenic drama for some. YMMV. DSP is already in most recordings, even if some are blissfully (and amusingly) unaware. If it improves the sound of your system to you, in room, better yet.
crwilli
Well-known member
- Thread Author
- #114
I have heard SOA 2 channel audio in a system built around the Legacy Valor speakers. It’s incredible and I could easily live with it. It relies heavily on DSP to time, phase, level align each specific driver. Amazing system.
I am not anti DSP. I have chosen not to use it beyond the subs but that’s only a choice. Not a bias.
I am not anti DSP. I have chosen not to use it beyond the subs but that’s only a choice. Not a bias.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
So they join Avantgarde, Klipsch, Magico, YG, etc, etc for their reference sound products. Cool. Ditto for all the studios making the music with Genelecs, JBL, Neumann, et al. All with ADC-DAC DSP. But what would they know about sound?
Given the thread, kinda guessed that
SCAudiophile
Active member
I think it's a matter of YG Acoustics, Tidal (the Bugatti) and the others you pointed out joining Legacy Audio, and of course Meridian (I believe the DSP-6000 speaker in 1990-91 to be the first), and other visionary, pioneering firms in the use of DSP. I believe SCAENA and later Kii were also early adopters from 2010 forward. SCAENA may only be for bass management, I'll have to catch up with their latest.So they join Avantgarde, Klipsch, Magico, YG, etc, etc for their reference sound products. Cool. Ditto for all the studios making the music with Genelecs, JBL, Neumann, et al. All with ADC-DAC DSP. But what would they know about sound?
Given the thread, kinda guessed that
Legacy has been using active crossover, full-range DSP in their speakers since the introduction of the HELIX in 2008-2009,
with Wavelaunch XD, the Whisper XD (2010-2011) with their Wavelaunch XD, later adding Aeris speakers, first with XILICA's 4080 pro studio DSP and then the Legacy Bohmer Wavelet v1. Whisper XDS used with Wavelet v1, the "V" speaker system with Wavelet v1 and Valor with Wavelet v1, all in the years following 2013. Legacy also did custom solutions (Caliber XD plus dual Foundation with Wavelet v1 then v2), Focus XD as an option as well as all their professional theater and studio speaker array and sub bass systems. Many of their pro setups are installed at Sony, Capital Records, Rick Rubin's studio and home, L.A. Reed's, etc.
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Kingrex
Active member
I have always respected Legacy. It was Rocky Mountain years ago that I heard if for the first time. First show I ever went to. I walked up to whoever was doing the demo in a large space and told him I was impressed by how good it was. That was part of why I let some other saleman I know sell me the DEQX Mate first. The Mate was a POS. I finally got DEQX to let me update to a PreMate after a lot of online bitching on Audionirvana. That was much better. Still didn't do what I wanted it to do.
Let us not forget. Every speaker has a voice. Heck, we can hear a power cord change. While soundstage is one aspect of it, there is so much more to music reproduction. Someone may have the most immersive system in the world, but that is only 1 piece. I never got a BACCH, even when personally having dinner with Edgar the designer a couple times. Soundstage is not the end all for me. Tone, or as close to live unamplified as I can get is more my focus. That and a sort of speed, that is part of that live sound. Where a snare drum has a crack that reminds you of being in a club. Or an acoustic guitar that gets you to your living room playing your own. That is my Number 1 goal. Not soundstage. Soundstage falls behind good, even bass. I want bass that is unobtrusive. Bass that is well integrated. Balanced in intensity across the lower octave, integrates with the mids and highs and never feels fat and slow. If I can get the first 2, I am done. I don't need the sound to wrap around me. Or to have pinpoint accuracy of musicians on stage. I have gotten soundstage close enough for me with 2 channel. Many times through the years I have gotten my setup to where I hear each singer individually. The guitar here, the piano there, the drums usually across the landscape. But very distinct to where the engineer panned the mic. Even classical has the timpani in the lower right side, the violins to the left, woodwinds in the back left or right. That good enough for me.
I have heard people beat a drum for some topology they prefer. Think Bonzo at WBF yarping about Horns and SET. He just can not understand, other don't want that sound. And its a sound. Just like Wilson and Dagostino is a sound. We gravitate to what we like. And we get annoyed when someone else continually pounds on us, telling us our system sucks because they like some other type of sound. A sound we do not gravitate to and find gyrating. You know, spins you into a mode of flip flip flip through songs. Never settled. Not all systems that are not your cup of tea do that. But some just leave you flat and wanting. Looking for something else. I know a local guy with a system like that. Technically its very good. Nothing to point at that you would say is lacking. Lots of plots and so on the point to correct playback in the room. But something boors me in it. Not my cup of tea.
I feel sorry for the OP. All he tried to do was tell people you could use AI to tune what you have. And someone then said digital suck. And someone came back with my stereo is better than yours. And it all fell apart.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
There's no drama like audiophile drama.