AI guided Room Optimization.

[AJ Soundfield]

When you add subwoofers to a system you become a speaker designer. You then get to design a crossover and find the speaker placement that properly integrates your components.

If you are doing this without the ability to measure individual speaker impulse response and adjust timing, determine crossover slopes and amplitudes then you are shooting in the dark.

This is where the “constantly adjusting never satisfied” syndrome takes over because it’s just never right.

This also creates interesting discussions about fast and slow subwoofers. Properly integrated subwoofers are fast, poorly integrated ones are slow.

Agreed. I would add the biggest issue beyond that is the room and the resonances. Below 50-60hz so called "traps" are complete nonsense, as far as nearly 60 foot long waves are concerned. That's where EQ is mandatory. And if you are a non audiophile 100% scientific approach to electroacoustic reproduction like me, then for the last 20yrs you did this https://www.ioa.org.uk/system/files...le_low_frequency_cardioids_in_small_rooms.pdf
Or you listened to your MoFi records with horrid in room response, because you know, DSP baaad

 

[crwilli]

When you add subwoofers to a system you become a speaker designer. You then get to design a crossover and find the speaker placement that properly integrates your components.

If you are doing this without the ability to measure individual speaker impulse response and adjust timing, determine crossover slopes and amplitudes then you are shooting in the dark.

This is where the “constantly adjusting never satisfied” syndrome takes over because it’s just never right.

This also creates interesting discussions about fast and slow subwoofers. Properly integrated subwoofers are fast, poorly integrated ones are slow.

Well said. I never thought about sub integration that way.

To the point of this thread, using REW and an AI engine to analyze the measurements, you can improve the integration in a very short period of time - without becoming an expert!

 

[a.wayne]

Completely oblivious to the DSP imbedded in your system via recordings and of course there will never be any measurements of your inferior analog conversions showing where "bandaids" would fix. IOW, the typical audiophile system like the 100s, maybe 1000 including shows, I've heard. Don't worry Mr Wayne, no one will ever hear your "No DSP" system, you're safe.

Chelsea > Arsenal , stay tuned …

 

[W9TR]

Agreed. I would add the biggest issue beyond that is the room and the resonances. Below 50-60hz so called "traps" are complete nonsense, as far as nearly 60 foot long waves are concerned. That's where EQ is mandatory. And if you are a non audiophile 100% scientific approach to electroacoustic reproduction like me, then for the last 20yrs you did this https://www.ioa.org.uk/system/files...le_low_frequency_cardioids_in_small_rooms.pdf
Or you listened to your MoFi records with horrid in room response, because you know, DSP baaad

Thanks! You beat me to it. Good paper. I wish he would have included monopole subs as well.

There is a wealth of information out there:
The Welti paper on multiple subs.
Toole's work for Harman.
"Subjective Preference of Modal Control Methods in Listening Rooms" Bruno Fadenza, et all is another good one.
CTA RP-22 is a good resource. Very well written.
SSS (Symmetrical Subwoofer Setup) and CABS.

I am putting 4 high excursion subs in my new theater, placed so they excite the minimum number of modes and also don't become a trip hazard. There are always compromises.

​

 

[Kingrex]

Thanks AJ and W9TR. Good resources on how to set up a "swarm" of subs. I have been sold on them since Atmasphere has been talking about them. It makes complete sense. JR of Wallytools is a good friend who also has me convinced multiple subs is the way to go. I will use a swarm of some sort when my room is done. I am not going to try and damp my way with room treatments, or DSP my way out of issues. I fully understand why that wont work. Don't get me wrong. The subs will most definitely be powered by something like a Dayton plate amp with DSP. But the intent is to position the subs around the room properly where they do the majority of work smoothing out peaks and dips. I may use simple 10" or 12" dayton drivers in flat pack sealed enclosures. Again, Dayton. They make it pretty easy and inexpensive to put a system together. Atmasphere did say that Audio Kinesis has a better driver than the Dayton. I am open to drivers.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Thanks! You beat me to it. Good paper. I wish he would have included monopole subs as well.

There is a wealth of information out there:
The Welti paper on multiple subs.
Toole's work for Harman.
"Subjective Preference of Modal Control Methods in Listening Rooms" Bruno Fadenza, et all is another good one.
CTA RP-22 is a good resource. Very well written.
SSS (Symmetrical Subwoofer Setup) and CABS.

I am putting 4 high excursion subs in my new theater, placed so they excite the minimum number of modes and also don't become a trip hazard. There are always compromises.

He specifically did not do monopoles because those had already been tested...and found to have too high decay times for reproducing lateralization spatial effects. Here is a paper that is an overview of 40+ papers, that show that decay times are critical. Note, this is primarily for music, not HT. Acoustic music can have spatial effects down to the lowest frequencies. The Welti and all other multisub approaches are based on monophonic signal. ALL spatial effects are lost <80 Hz +/-. That approach for smooth amplitude over a wide listening area is perfect for HT and music listeners who primarily listen to pop/rock etc (like Dr Geddes). For folks like me who listen to classical/jazz etc, it's a complete no go. Thankfully there were folks like Dr Griesinger, JJohnston and more recently Genelecs perceptual scientist Thomas Lund
I absolutely do not recommend monophonic, monopolar subs for acoustic music.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Thanks AJ and W9TR. Good resources on how to set up a "swarm" of subs. I have been sold on them since Atmasphere has been talking about them. It makes complete sense. JR of Wallytools is a good friend who also has me convinced multiple subs is the way to go. I will use a swarm of some sort when my room is done. I am not going to try and damp my way with room treatments, or DSP my way out of issues. I fully understand why that wont work. Don't get me wrong. The subs will most definitely be powered by something like a Dayton plate amp with DSP. But the intent is to position the subs around the room properly where they do the majority of work smoothing out peaks and dips. I may use simple 10" or 12" dayton drivers in flat pack sealed enclosures. Again, Dayton. They make it pretty easy and inexpensive to put a system together. Atmasphere did say that Audio Kinesis has a better driver than the Dayton. I am open to drivers.

See above