Absolute Neutrality - Possible? Do we even want it?

The more "neutral" your system sounds,in your room, the less albums you will play on your system. You also won't sit for very long in front of it either.

I'm not sure that I agree with that statement. Executed poorly, yes. Executed correctly, no. Too often "neutral" is associated with solid-state electronics or that hyperdetailed sound of companies such as ARC in the'90s. Neutrality and musicality aren't mutually exclusive.
 
I'm a big fan of good studio recordings.

Aside from the better sonics, I don't have to be the chief "shoosher" in the audience. I hate when the audience makes noise, hums, taps their feet, their hands (especially if they have a ring on) against on the arms of their seat, cough a lot (STAY HOME!) or even breath too loudly. And let's not forgget the REALLY annoying person who wears perfume or cologne. YUCK! and there isn't anything you can do about that, they can't take it off, they just stink throughout the performance. Whenever that happens, I always remark loudly and repeatedly to Gail how much the person smells. Instead of doing s security check, they should give everyone a sniff and ban those people from the auditorium. A portion of the time, (especially older) people are deaf and don't realize others around them hear all their noise. I was recently at a concert where they were playing Dvorak's New World, and during the spritely moving parts, the guy two rows in front of me was thinking he was the freaking conductor and was tapping his hands against his armrest--and he had a big ring on his finger that made a hell of a lot of noise. During the intermission, I asked him if he could hear his ring banging on the chair and he said "no." I told him in no uncertain terms that EVERYONE ELSE COULD!

Sit down, shut up and don't move around in your chair.

Sorry for the rant, but I had to get this out of my system.

Know we don't often agree but we do on this subject. People are getting ruder and ruder at concerts.
 
I know a few people who have good systems and they do play the same dozen albums over and over because it sounds really good.
 
I'm not sure that I agree with that statement. Executed poorly, yes. Executed correctly, no. Too often "neutral" is associated with solid-state electronics or that hyperdetailed sound of companies such as ARC in the'90s. Neutrality and musicality aren't mutually exclusive.


Works for me, had many different sounding systems, anything on the neutral side didn't last too long
 
The problem with threads like this is words such as neutral, musical, transparent, accurate, etc. really have no meaning. Or many meanings, depending on how each person interprets it.
 
So, I am reading a review of the Pass Labs XS pre-amp, and XS300 amp, and what do I see.


"Every Pass preamp and power amplifier I’ve heard has been remarkably neutral, worked easily with a wide range of front-end components and loudspeakers, was free of any solid-state coloration, and was transparent and neutral in sound quality. You begin with truly musical components, and they get better and better. "


Apparently, in this case, "neutral" is a good thing.


Pass Xs Preamp and Xs 300 Mono Power Amplifiers | The Absolute Sound
 
The problem with threads like this is words such as neutral, musical, transparent, accurate, etc. really have no meaning. Or many meanings, depending on how each person interprets it.


Agreed ...other then Neutral .. That's a pretty unilateral description .. And for once the revies are right pass is as neutral as I have ever heard ..and I have heard a serious amount of gear from 199.99 to 500k . I have no clue what magical mouse is running on the wheel inside them pass components but it does it's job like no other ... I've never kept personal pre as long as I have with my XP-30 and still have no plans of doing it ant time soon
 
The problem with threads like this is words such as neutral, musical, transparent, accurate, etc. really have no meaning. Or many meanings, depending on how each person interprets it.

I thought JGH defined these terms pretty well in his book. So did Jack English years ago back in Stereophile. (Or maybe it's like Potter Stewart's definition of pornography! ;) ) The problem is that people/reviewers keep inventing terms to add to the confusion that are meaningless or even worse just confuse the situation. The worse IMHO is organic. Oh how I hate that word. Describe it, don't just invent a term.

Personally, I think transparency is obvious especially when you truly hear a transparent system.

I think the issue is whether one wants to take the reductionist approach favored by say reviewers in the US or the global approach often take by the UK reviewers.
 
So, I am reading a review of the Pass Labs XS pre-amp, and XS300 amp, and what do I see.


"Every Pass preamp and power amplifier I’ve heard has been remarkably neutral, worked easily with a wide range of front-end components and loudspeakers, was free of any solid-state coloration, and was transparent and neutral in sound quality. You begin with truly musical components, and they get better and better. "


Apparently, in this case, "neutral" is a good thing.


Pass Xs Preamp and Xs 300 Mono Power Amplifiers | The Absolute Sound

Let's look neutrality in another way. What sort of qualities would a "non"-neutral or "colored" component exhibit?

Do listeners want every recording to sound the same?
 
I would argue that most people (but not all) generally gravitate toward amps which are either slightly warm or sweet sounding. I consider Pass amps more on the warm side...especially the .5's. The .8's, to me, are indeed closer to neutral, but not anywhere near as neutral sounding as say a Soulution 710.
 
I would argue that most people (but not all) generally gravitate toward amps which are either slightly warm or sweet sounding. I consider Pass amps more on the warm side...especially the .5's. The .8's, to me, are indeed closer to neutral, but not anywhere near as neutral sounding as say a Soulution 710.

Not trying to start an argument but do you think that's in part because many people use a digital front end?
 
I think that's definitely part of it. But I also think neutrality sounds....uhhh...unnatural. Is neutrality something a designer strives for on a test bench or is it something they are listening for? If they are listening for something, what is their reference? Flat, boring sound? I think so.

Think about a musical instrument for a second. Every musical instrument has a type of character. Whether we are talking about the fret board on Gibson vs a Fender or a Yamaha grand piano vs a Steinway. My saxophone is from Paris France, hand built in 1968 and it sounds very different then a modern Yamaha or Yanagisawa.

There is arguably characteristics which are pleasing to the human ear. Sonic characteristics which ignite emotions. Then, on the flip side, there is gear which seems to offer no unique character (the Soulution 710 is my reference here) and this gear is one in which we let our brains overrule our hearts.

I would argue that absolute neutrality is not a destination, but merely a point along the road in which all designers must eventually get to, in order to understand they have not reached the end. If a audio designer is indeed like a master chef, that master chef must first make something which tastes bad in order to truly understand what tastes great.


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I think neutral gear should sound like whatever type of instrument it is reproducing with all of the unique sounds it makes with regards to the manufacturer and keep all of the harmonics intact. It appears to me that some people think if a piece of gear is neutral that it is removing harmonic information and the natural dynamics that exist in the recordings while stripping out any of the natural warmth that exists. That is not my idea of neutral gear.

On the other hand, if you expect to play back crappy recordings that the harmonic information appears to have been bleached out, there is no natural warmth, the music sounds like digital icicles, and the recording is compressed to death and then you expect to run that crap source material through your electronics and have a sonic masterpiece spit out the other end, then we are not talking about why you don't like neutral gear.
 
I think neutral gear should sound like whatever type of instrument it is reproducing with all of the unique sounds it makes with regards to the manufacturer and keep all of the harmonics intact

That is how how I envision 'neutral', 'transparent', and 'accurate'. Reproduce the recording as is, no more, no less.
 
You know, I think most of us would actually prefer a neutral piece of gear - - - - - if we lived in an ideal world. And by ideal world, I'm talkin' about some kind of parallel universe to where most recordings sound fantastic, and that we have access to materials that can pass along an electronic signal without imparting any kind of audible fingerprint. Pretty kickin' right?

Sigh. If only....

Back here on earth, the reality of the situation is that most recordings suck donkey D when it comes to sound quality. On top of that, I know of no physical component (not even a conductor!) that can truly sound invisible. This is partly why I applaud the engineers who work so hard to build gear that they feel is 'true to the recording'. They have a super tough oar to row. Even if they were to succeed in creating a brutally honest component - the question then becomes - who'd be willing to $$$pay$$$ to hear the truth? Using the current market as a rough indicator, I'd say the answer is a resounding.. "not many..".
 
You know, I think most of us would actually prefer a neutral piece of gear - - - - - if we lived in an ideal world. And by ideal world, I'm talkin' about some kind of parallel universe to where most recordings sound fantastic, and that we have access to materials that can pass along an electronic signal without imparting any kind of audible fingerprint. Pretty kickin' right?

Sigh. If only....

Back here on earth, the reality of the situation is that most recordings suck donkey D when it comes to sound quality. On top of that, I know of no physical component (not even a conductor!) that can truly sound invisible. This is partly why I applaud the engineers who work so hard to build gear that they feel is 'true to the recording'. They have a super tough oar to row. Even if they were to succeed in creating a brutally honest component - the question then becomes - who'd be willing to $$$pay$$$ to hear the truth? Using the current market as a rough indicator, I'd say the answer is a resounding.. "not many..".

That may be your reality, but it isn't mine. What source material do you listen to?
 
The problem isn't the gear, it's the recordings. There could be twenty different engineers/producers in the control room and you will have twenty different versions of how the piece of music should sound. In order for me to get the most enjoyment out of most of the music I buy I want some type of colored sound. That gives me what I want from my music. Warm, lush sounds with a little soul thrown in. Absolute neutrality! No thanks.
 
Mep - Just about everything. Jazz. Classical. Rock. Metal. Acoustic. Pop. The list goes on and on... Also, I'm pretty sure "my reality" is well grounded.
 
I'm a big fan of good studio recordings.

Aside from the better sonics, I don't have to be the chief "shoosher" in the audience. I hate when the audience makes noise, hums, taps their feet, their hands (especially if they have a ring on) against on the arms of their seat, cough a lot (STAY HOME!) or even breath too loudly. And let's not forgget the REALLY annoying person who wears perfume or cologne. YUCK! and there isn't anything you can do about that, they can't take it off, they just stink throughout the performance. Whenever that happens, I always remark loudly and repeatedly to Gail how much the person smells. Instead of doing s security check, they should give everyone a sniff and ban those people from the auditorium. A portion of the time, (especially older) people are deaf and don't realize others around them hear all their noise. I was recently at a concert where they were playing Dvorak's New World, and during the spritely moving parts, the guy two rows in front of me was thinking he was the freaking conductor and was tapping his hands against his armrest--and he had a big ring on his finger that made a hell of a lot of noise. During the intermission, I asked him if he could hear his ring banging on the chair and he said "no." I told him in no uncertain terms that EVERYONE ELSE COULD!

Sit down, shut up and don't move around in your chair.

Sorry for the rant, but I had to get this out of my system.

Gary,

Excellent and interesting post.

But you know, the guy could have replied :
" if you do not like the contact with living people, who make noise and smell, stay in your studio ! You are in the real life here".

What do you want ? That is life.
There has always been cough in concert halls. Indeed, in Northern US and Canada, in winter, almost everyone has a cough. Should we stop concerts during the winter season ?
That is annoying, I agree fully with you. But that is life.
You have to focus on music and forget the smell, the cough. Because you will always find EVERYWHERE people with an "invasive" attitude.

It is up to you only not to let those noises, odor and so on, disturb your inner harmony.

That is what Zen is about.
Accepting the world as it is. And concentrate about the only reason why you are here.
In this case, enjoying music.
It takes time and efforts. But it is worthy to try. I live much better since I changed my attitude towards the people around me doing "disturbing" things.

Classical Concerts are fabulous. And no music system on earth will ever give just 5% of this energy and beauty. Do not let uneducated people take an ounce of your pleasure of being there my Friend !



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