A must read...

Fanaticism and bias, are rampant. Just as many guys, discredit something...based solely on the fact that it's expensive, new, digital; as they do...because it's cheap, old, or analog.

The problem, is with the word "better". For example..."vinyl sounds better". Uh-huh...define "better". "Better to your ears". OK...that's clearer; but why is it "better" to your ears? Are you listening to a $50k TT, versus a $2k digital set-up? Is vinyl what you grew up with, and you can't help but feel nostalgic about its sound? It's what you cut your teeth on, so it's the standard by which others are judged?

Maybe your hearing is screwed-up in a way...that makes vinyl more appealing, lol :P

I don't mean to pick on the vinyl guys; it's purely arbitrary to illustrate a point (because the same could be said, about digital...vintage...big bass...good mids, etc). I don't judge; live and let live...as long as you do the same for me.

I like guys that have passion for the hobby! That's why I like this site. OK...sometimes, it can be a little rah-rah, lol :notreally: But I'll take that...guys who really love, gear and music; as opposed to the alternative.

I don't care if you spin 78s on a Victrola; as long as you don't attack my choices. Then, you'll force me to defend myself...and your precious shellacs might be in trouble. :what2:
 
The most important is how the system sounds to YOU as for others that is secondary the one paying the bill should be the one satisfied plain and simple most of my friends have systems much more expensive than mine BUT they don't sound 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - times better than mine even if that is what it cost them and they also don't care they ALL know.:congrats:
 
Yeah, hey Chris, what's the meaning of picking on us folks who like vinyl!! Only teasing, you make a good point. I do think fanaticism and bias are rampant and sadly not just in audio. However, unfortunately it is also human nature and you can't fight that with any real effect. Education is the best weapon.

You make a very interesting point about words like "better". It is a subjective word now that I think about it. It means different things to different people. It's like the phrase, "describe normal". I never say that vinyl is better as an absolute simply because I know it is not an absolute. I do believe though that vinyl is better with certain recordings just as I also believe that CD is better with certain recordings. I don't get the High-Rez thing, but that is not a reason to say it's bad or good. I also have not experienced enough of it to even make a judgement call for myself. I heard one SACD (A Yes LP, but I forgot which) and to my ears it was awful, but one SACD does not constitute all of them.
I have a lot of music that to me sounds far better on vinyl than their CD cousins. However, on the flip-side I have CDs that to my ears sound better than the vinyl cousins. There is room in my world for just about everything in audio...ok, except poor recordings.
That goes for gear as well, which I am not really into beyond the very mere basics. To me, if it works for you and sounds good to you, then it is, period, end of story.
Audio is like that dress picture that went nuts a week ago or so. Everybody saw it differently yet it was the same dress.

~Eric
 
+1 for the AK community. The soul, jazz, classical threads are as good as any on the net.
 
MusicDirector said:
I have to say Dave, that I have read some of those types of posts you describe as well. I think what gets me is the fanatical ones, not the everyday joe ones, not at all and I agree that vintage gear can sound as nice as modern gear. That's my bad, for not specifying, sorry.
I've sent myself running out of the room by playing a bad recording on both my systems a few times, so it works both ways.
It's all synergy. I'm rather fond of my vintage gear equal with my modern. In fact, I run a legacy TT (about 24 years old) in my modern system. I used the $5 figure as an extreme to make a point. I know it's not quite that bad in most cases.
I agree that it is not worth anything to pay big bucks for barely subtle improvements, never a good idea. I'm slightly lower than Middle class and I don't pursue the elusive perfect sound, so I know what your saying.

I have a vintage system for the same reasons, the beauty and quality of it. Mine is 40 years old and still going strong, that speaks volumes. However, I will also add that I feel fortunate to have what I have of both my vintage system (which I acquired before the market in my area dried up nearly completely( and for what I have in my modern system through much hard work and saving. The speakers alone took two years of saving and scrimping and were the priciest item, but were also the biggest improvement I made. I have nothing even remotely near any of the systems here, but what I have serves me and allows me to enjoy the music.
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Were cool. Another reason vintage is so popular over there is bang for the buck. But now that's catching on and prices are going up. The only thing not going up is my pay.
 
just dave said:
Were cool. Another reason vintage is so popular over there is bang for the buck. But now that's catching on and prices are going up. The only thing not going up is my pay.
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Yes, bang for buck is measurable provided one doesn't have to put a bunch of work and money into fixing the unit up. That said though, I personally think that some of the vintage gear is worth throwing even a ben or two at fixing up to nice order. I admire those who can DIY it all the way. I don't have those skills.

I'm saving up to get my Sansui overhauled buying enough time to possibly out-live me. It's my favorite receiver I have. The only thing wrong with it is a couple of lights are now out, but I might as well get her all done.

For me it's also the nostalgia. It's the stuff I saw growing up, always wanted and never had. Yes, prices are out of control almost. My area is a desert when it comes to vintage gear and when something does come to market it's crazy priced. Like I said, I got lucky and came in on the tail end of the bubble. I could not afford to get what I have now.
 
The thing I don't fully understand with the Modern vs Vintage is the In-Between. Most of my gear is old, but not quite Vintage yet. I rarely ever see people suggesting to others to look for Used Semi Modern Gear. I rarely ever see someone suggest a used Stratos amp or Rotel Reciever or JM Labs, Dynaudio, B&W. All suggestions point to getting a really old pair of speakers that need refoaming, recapping, regrilling as opposed to buying a set of speakers or amp from the 90s that needs no work at all and sounds as good and possibly better than what is suggested.

It seems that when people think of modern, they think of Brand New High End and miss out on all the Entry Level gear that at used prices are absolutely worth the couple extra dollars and need no work. My Dynaudio 82s look and sound exactly the way they did when I got them, not a mark anywhere on them. If you can find a pair at $1100, it's a bargain. I picked up a Rotel 1052 Receiver for $100 a few years ago. That should be a No Brainer. I recently saw a CL ad for the same receiver and matching 5 CD player for $250 each, which is still a great bargain. My Hafler gear from the 90s is also very good and but for a minor repair to the pre, they have worked flawless for many years.

Aside from that, I do understand the DIY thing and the fun it is to tinker.

Lets give a shout out to 90s era Entry Level gear!
 
My son has a friend, both are in their 20's. His friend has gear envy. He claimed for the longest time that his dads Bose system sounded as good a my main system. It took 2 years for him to one day state that my system sounded better.

I do believe that people hear differently and that when some people listen to music and they can't tell the difference between a "HiFi" sound and "LoFi" it is because they are not really listening intently and they are not music lovers or it is not really important to them.

I also believe that DBT's are of merit when it comes to audio with some caveat's. Certainly when testing cables or other gear, differences may or may not be heard because of the other associated gear and the listening environment. This may explain why some one can hear a difference in sound with a piece of gear in their system but not another's.

I do believe that if you have a large enough group of reviewers that are interested in audio, then a DBT is fairly reliable if done correctly. ( I tend to believe DBT in audio where it tests if a person can hear a difference between gear and not necessarily which one is better sounding because that is more subjective).

I believe that some who people don't believe in DBT results with audio gear may have gear envy or do not want to believe that their expensive gear may not sound any better than a cheaper unit.

I always like to tell the story of a double blind test done at an audio show a few years back where Frank Van Alstine and several other people participated in a test to see if they could tell the difference between cheap generic IC's and a high end brand. To every one's surprise the cheap cables where picked by most of the participants and even the sale's rep for the high end cable company. Needless to say the sales rep was dumbfounded.
 
Mechnutt said:
My son has a friend, both are in their 20's. His friend has gear envy. He claimed for the longest time that his dads Bose system sounded as good a my main system. It took 2 years for him to one day state that my system sounded better.
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Larry,

I have long time friends that never had good sound and in every house the have, they put in ceiling speakers all over the house, never any real speakers. They could never understand my setup, like you said because they really were not listening.

Last year they bought a house that was also already wired everywhere and on the deck out back were some reasonably sized Bose outdoor speakers. After they moved in, they called me to say they finally get it after hearing their music thru Bose speakers.

I had fun adding a Receiver, Sonus Streamer, Blu, a separate HT setup and 4 TVs to the house and getting it all to work with a Harmony Remote.

IMG_5921_zps9999f8f3.jpg
 
Off topic here- Brian are you going to Axpona? I am going with 2-3 friends and Mr. P. is going. I am going to try on hook up with him.
 
Mechnutt said:
I do believe that people hear differently and that when some people listen to music and they can't tell the difference between a "HiFi" sound and "LoFi" it is because they are not really listening intently and they are not music lovers or it is not really important to them.
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This has always been my contention; but it's misunderstood.

I don't believe in "golden ears"; whether you have good hearing or poor, is a matter of fact. But if you're not in the hobby, you don't really know what you're listening for. I mean...unless you're A/B-ing a $200 system, against a $20,000 one; most hi-end kit, sounds at least "good".

It's a matter of nuance...finesse; or FR. Getting that last little nth, but at what expense; which is where everyone's own law of diminishing return kicks in.

So...just because someone loves music, doesn't mean they know what distinguishes "good" from average sound; and just because you're an audiophile who does...doesn't mean you're only listening to the sound, and don't love music.

Now...sometimes we seek out, those who also don't have our biases. My best friend, grew up a musician; he has great ears for pitch and tone...but he doesn't know jack about gear. That's good...because I used to drag him to auditions, and would never tell him which I thought was better, or which cost what. He would say "this sounds more like live music"...and in my audiophile infacncy, I used to drink from the old-school credo; that "live" sound, was what we were seeking. I don't necessarily feel that way now actually.

My ex, loves and knows music...almost as much as I do. I'm more a can tell ya which track, from which album; and what year, and who the guitarist is...and what other band he's played in, etc, etc. Whereas she knows the lyrics, to just about every song ever recorded; but doesn't care a lick about sound! I tried to use her, for unbiased audition opinions. It was useless; she'd say "they both sound good"..."they sound the same".

I'd then try to explain about rich mids, and delicate highs; and sound-stage. Until I realized...I sounded like an a$$hole, and it was not nearly as much fun; as taking her to the bedroom :happy:
 
My son is excellent at picking out the nuances of my system and every piece of gear that I have. My 27yo daughter (then she was around 20 or so) was not very good at picking out differences until I made her sit down, listen, clear her head of what ever young women think about ( I may catch a bunch of crap for that line) and concentrate. I told her that this was important to me. Then she got it and was able to tell the difference between my Cambridge Audio 840c CDP, a Marantz SA-8001 SACDP and my AVA DAC. We all preferred the sound of the Cambridge over the Marantz and preferred the DAC over the 840c. She was able to accurately describe why which was in total agreement with my son and I. She did so with out knowing how my son and I felt about each piece as I told her that I liked all three but was only going to keep one.
 
Mechnutt said:
Off topic here- Brian are you going to Axpona? I am going with 2-3 friends and Mr. P. is going. I am going to try on hook up with him.
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I would have loved to see Chicago and meet up with you but I will be driving back from Stowe VT on the 24th. Enjoy and say hello to Bryan for me.
 
CDLehner said:
This has always been my contention; but it's misunderstood.

I don't believe in "golden ears"; whether you have good hearing or poor, is a matter of fact. But if you're not in the hobby, you don't really know what you're listening for. I mean...unless you're A/B-ing a $200 system, against a $20,000 one; most hi-end kit, sounds at least "good".

It's a matter of nuance...finesse; or FR. Getting that last little nth, but at what expense; which is where everyone's own law of diminishing return kicks in.

So...just because someone loves music, doesn't mean they know what distinguishes "good" from average sound; and just because you're an audiophile who does...doesn't mean you're only listening to the sound, and don't love music.

Now...sometimes we seek out, those who also don't have our biases. My best friend, grew up a musician; he has great ears for pitch and tone...but he doesn't know jack about gear. That's good...because I used to drag him to auditions, and would never tell him which I thought was better, or which cost what. He would say "this sounds more like live music"...and in my audiophile infacncy, I used to drink from the old-school credo; that "live" sound, was what we were seeking. I don't necessarily feel that way now actually.
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I'm not sure I can resonate completely with your second statement because I know what you saying as far as it goes, but I also know folks who really only listen to gear 95% of the time and not the essence of the music. However, it can also be said that there is a purpose to do that as well, such as the pursuit of perfect (not counting if it is one's job of course). Music lovers (folks who really listen to music) will often know rather quickly what distinguishes "good" sound from "average" sound because they know what it should sound like to them. It's also a willful choice to make that distinction. To me, as a music lover non-audiophile, I choose to not have an "average" sound category and a string of sub-categories. Why? Who decides what is average? There is no standard of measurement, so it's throwing darts in the dark. To me there is good sound which covers a somewhat broad range and bad sound and all of that is according to "my ears", not anyone else's. It's also the recording or the room, just as often as it is the gear and perhaps even more so.
Whatever one's thing is, be it listening to gear mostly or music mostly or a combo of both or other aspects, the point is the is no wrong or right in regards to individual bias or hearing and what have you. The point is to enjoy it and not judge others for their enjoyments or interest in any given aspect of "the hobby" or try to create a standard of measurement for a subjective item.

The idea of asking someone you know with different bias, but also an interest to auditions is tactical genius in my opinion. Taking someone who doesn't care a lick is a fool's errand at best. Then again, just try finding someone who doesn't care even willing to tag along on an audition = nearly mission impossible in my experience.

Just my opinion.
 
Thanks for sharing, Chris.

I'll use this quote, which applies to all things, even audio, "When given facts that contradicted their beliefs, they resorted to moral opinion."

The fact is, you are listening to published music that was recorded in an environment , adjusted in another environment (or a couple environment), and listened in your environment.
 
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