86%

Mike

Mike

Audioshark
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
30,486
Location
Sarasota, FL
Last weekend I attended the monthly Suncoast Audiophile Society meeting. It was held at Sleepysurf's (Alan) place. He had invited Nyal to give a virtual presentation on bass management. In the presentation, Nyal cited a recent study from Harman corporation which discovered that 86% of what we hear is influenced in one way or another by the room.

Perhaps Alan or Nyal can chime in with more details. But I will say, the presentation was fascinating. I will try to post pictures of the presentation.

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Mike, after that, "if", you hadn't of treated your room, do you think you would after that presentation?
 
You would buy treatments for higher frequencies (Vicoustics for example), but NOT bass traps. He showed that adding 10 bass traps ONLY had an impact of 3db on the biggest sub 100hz problem. A 20-30db bump at 73hz like I had would require 100 bass traps.

I love my Vicoustics - they worked wonders, but my ASC bass traps were a huge waste of f'ing money. I tried to work with the folks at ASC, but all I got was BS excuses on why my 10 traps weren't doing a damn thing. Yeah, I'm bitter. They weren't cheap.

To be fair, the bass traps did some nice things for imaging - but they did not even come close to fixing the problem - which is why I bought them! Only my DSPeaker 2.0 Dual Core TRULY, 100% measured, unequivocally fixed my problem at 73hz.

As a side note, I received the DEQX and I'm looking to compare that to the dual core. But let's just say, if you have a nail, the dual core is the hammer.

Nyal is a big believer in a multi stage approach - measure, position speakers, remeasure, reposition speakers, measure and so on. Next, DSP and multiple subs to even things out. He mentioned a new product from MiniDSP that looks interesting.

http://www.minidsp.com/dirac-series/ddrc-22a


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You know, when we were listening to the Torus Infrasonic Generator in my set-up, I took the bass traps out of the room, & guess what, all three of us could not perceive any change in the sound at all for my supposed 80hz bulge. Like you said though I did notice the change in the room of the sound when I first added them, now, I think it may have been more of a reflection thing.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts between the dsp's
 
Mike said:
my ASC bass traps were a huge waste of f'ing money. I tried to work with the folks at ASC, but all I got was BS excuses on why my 10 traps weren't doing a damn thing. Yeah, I'm bitter. They weren't cheap.
Click to expand...

Wow.I'm shocked.
 
I love my Vicoustics - they worked wonders, but my ASC bass traps were a huge waste of f'ing money. I tried to work with the folks at ASC, but all I got was BS excuses on why my 10 traps weren't doing a damn thing. Yeah, I'm bitter. They weren't cheap.

To be fair, the bass traps did some nice things for imaging - but they did not even come close to fixing the problem - which is why I bought them! Only my DSPeaker 2.0 Dual Core TRULY, 100% measured, unequivocally fixed my problem at 73hz.
Click to expand...


Interesting, Mike. As it just so happens, I've also got ten ASC Tube Traps and, like you, put a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core in my system (months ago) and was very impressed with the results. It's a nice little unit with a lot of features for not that much cost.
 
My ASC tube traps help with imaging focus and soundstage. But in my room, they measurably did sweet bugger all on bass node problems. Before and after measurements show no difference. Maybe 3-4db tops.

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The DSPeaker 2.0 Dual Core fixed ALL of the bass problems, didn't negatively affect sound one bit and cost 1/10 the cost of the bass traps. Before and after measurements go from "big problem" to "fixed"!

qa3azu2u.jpg


I look forward to trying the DEQX in the next week or two. I have it, but need to work with the experts at the company to set it up and configure it.


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I cannot speak to other products, but if they have been lab tested and show to work below 100hz, then they will, and you do not need 100 of them. Keep in mind that frequency response is only one small piece of the puzzle. Decay times and ETC is just as important, if not more important, IMO. Also your room measurements look a bit strange. Not saying they are wrong, but to have all those spikes in the low end with no real nulls is strange to say the least. I would recommend you test with a program like REW, which will give you much more usable information.
 
Thanks Glenn. Hopefully Nyal will chime in with his data. For me, no further testing is needed. Just listening, you could tell the traps sharpened up the image and a few other things, but they clearly did not have any impact on the problem areas below 100hz.


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Well like I said I am not 100% sure your measurements are correct. But if that spike, for example was coming from the back wall then you would need to treat the back wall. The same would go for the ceiling, side or front walls. For the most part you will notice a much higher impact on the decay times (think of this like low end reverb) when bass traps are but in corners, which as I said is just as important if not more important then frequency response.

BTW I lived in Sarasota for a number of years. MISS IT BIG TIME!! ;)
 
Glenn Kuras said:
Well like I said I am not 100% sure your measurements are correct. But if that spike, for example was coming from the back wall then you would need to treat the back wall. The same would go for the ceiling, side or front walls. For the most part you will notice a much higher impact on the decay times (think of this like low end reverb) when bass traps are but in corners, which as I said is just as important if not more important then frequency response.

BTW I lived in Sarasota for a number of years. MISS IT BIG TIME!! ;)
Click to expand...

If you ever get back here, swing on over for a listen. I have 10 big ass ASC tube traps and I worked with the manufacturer on several placement ideas. They did nothing to solve the real problem. When people have a small bump, a much shorter delay problem, then maybe bass traps will help. But a 73hz spike will go right around bass traps and laugh at them. DSP (DSPeaker 2.0 Dual Core - which is a bass only DSP solution) combined with multiple subs was the only thing that worked. And it worked. :)


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Mike what is the dimensions of the room? Actually I have found that if the spike is high like that it is easier to start to tame, but it is those last few db that can be a "bitch" (very technical term ha ha) to fix. If the tests are right I wonder if just moving might be in order. I am not up to 10 posts yet so I can't post a link but I have HAMMERED a 70hz problem with 8 traps. ;)
 
BTW what you did worked for the spike, but still would be interested to see the decay times.
 
Glenn Kuras said:
BTW what you did worked for the spike, but still would be interested to see the decay times.
Click to expand...

I have the software (XTZ) and mic, but haven't yet been able to bring myself to buy a copy of Windows to run it.


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Hi Mike, often times for specific low frequencies a Helmholtz resonator is one of the only answers, along with dsp. Bass traps are a misnomer as low frequencies have very long wavelengths so the traps need to be huge the typical 16" traps won't do much in that frequency to tame the fundamental energy though they will help with the decaying energy. Digital parametric eq with high Q set at that specific frequency will help
 
Mike said:
My ASC tube traps help with imaging focus and soundstage. But in my room, they measurably did sweet bugger all on bass node problems. Before and after measurements show no difference. Maybe 3-4db tops.

ybuta9y6.jpg


y7y3abyv.jpg


The DSPeaker 2.0 Dual Core fixed ALL of the bass problems, didn't negatively affect sound one bit and cost 1/10 the cost of the bass traps. Before and after measurements go from "big problem" to "fixed"!

qa3azu2u.jpg


I look forward to trying the DEQX in the next week or two. I have it, but need to work with the experts at the company to set it up and configure it.


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Click to expand...

The other issue with Bass Traps that no one seems to mention is that they kill dynamics.
 
Adrian Low said:
Hi Mike, often times for specific low frequencies a Helmholtz resonator is one of the only answers, along with dsp. Bass traps are a misnomer as low frequencies have very long wavelengths so the traps need to be huge the typical 16" traps won't do much in that frequency to tame the fundamental energy though they will help with the decaying energy. Digital parametric eq with high Q set at that specific frequency will help
Click to expand...

Adrian - since I sold the Alexia's, I don't have any bass issues. :)

To be fair, I've had other speakers that were problematic in that room.

Speakers with a bass chamber like the Strads or downward firing port like the Salon 2's, work best. Any speaker that excited the corner where the back wall meets the side wall AND the sloping down roof is a nightmare.


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Mike said:
No argument here. In the end, the dual core just left the system lifeless.


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Click to expand...

Hi Mike, can you clarify? Are you saying that with the DSpeaker the system became lifeless?

For what it's worth, this may not necessarily be the DSP's fault... excess bass energy (as long as it's not boomy) can give a great sense of increased dynamics; not accurate but can be very enjoyable. High Q peaks in the bass can do that. When bass peaks are lower Q and also cause boominess, the result is terrible for articulation and detail.

I'm happy for you that the Strads work better in your room. :)
 
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